how do you test a fire alarm?

[mikex79]

hi i just wonder how do yo test a fire alarm, what test needs to be done to sign it off, what qualification do you need to do the fire alarm testing job and what makes you a fire alarm engineer? is the NIC EIC Fire alarm and Emergency Lighting 2 days course enough to becoma an engineer?

 

[adam.h]

To become an engineer you usually have to complete engineering degree
or work your way up from technician to engineer, though rare but can be done

 

[ron55]

To become an engineer you usually have to complete engineering degree
or work your way up from technician to engineer, though rare but can be done

Sorry Adam, way off the mark here. It is very common to work to being an engineer through HNC and HND qualifications.

As for fire alarm "engineers," do me a favour. These guys may know fire alarms but they are far from being engineers. Fire alarms sysstems are not complex but you have to know the appropriate legislation. Proper electician training is far more involved.

Cheers, Ron

 

[adam.h]

Sorry Adam, way off the mark here. It is very common to work to being an engineer through HNC and HND qualifications.

As for fire alarm "engineers," do me a favour. These guys may know fire alarms but they are far from being engineers. Fire alarms sysstems are not complex but you have to know the appropriate legislation. Proper electician training is far more involved.

Cheers, Ron

Yes, so when you finish a hnc / hnd you become a technician. After years of experience, providing you are able to carry out and perform an engineers role then you can become an engineer.
The engineering status in the uk is unregulated, unlike most other countries where you HAVE to have completed a degree (or equivialent in that given country) Over here you can be a pat tester and call yoursefl an engineer, or a washing machine fixer (technician) and still call yourself an engineer.
Most engineering companies will hold a stance to the fact that you need to have a degree to be an engineer. Anythign lower you are a technician. But of course, you can cross over through experience.

 

[ron55]

Yes, so when you finish a hnc / hnd you become a technician. After years of experience, providing you are able to carry out and perform an engineers role then you can become an engineer.
The engineering status in the uk is unregulated, unlike most other countries where you HAVE to have completed a degree (or equivialent in that given country) Over here you can be a pat tester and call yoursefl an engineer, or a washing machine fixer (technician) and still call yourself an engineer.
Most engineering companies will hold a stance to the fact that you need to have a degree to be an engineer. Anythign lower you are a technician. But of course, you can cross over through experience.

I think we have a mis-understanding here Adam. You are correct in what you say, my point was meant to be that it is not rare, far from it.

Cheers, Ron

 

[adam.h]

I think we have a mis-understanding here Adam. You are correct in what you say, my point was meant to be that it is not rare, far from it.

Cheers, Ron

I'm still young...ish (well I feel young ) so I have not come across many people who have managed to become an engineer without a degree, only older (as is people who have worked for over 45 years) I have known to have gained engineering status, and thats only about 2 people lol. Mind, I managed to, but its just not what I want to do anymore, I prefere doing the work of a spark lol. Some see that as crazy. But if you dont like what your doing, you dont put in the effort and work becomes a drag

 

[Lou7]

there is a difference between an "engineer" and a fire alarm engineer, usually anybody that works on F/A's is called an engineer.

I know it sounds swiss but I know what I mean

 

[ron55]

with a can of spray smoke and an NIC fire alarm form

I think you may struggle to test heat detectors this way

You need a lot more knowledge of systems than a fare alarm form!

Cheers, Ron

with a can of spray smoke and an NIC fire alarm form

I think you may struggle to test heat detectors this way

You need a lot more knowledge of systems than a fire alarm form!

Cheers, Ron

 

[cfsfire]

There is a lot to know regarding the legislation and british standards and every job call for a diffrent design to fulfil a fire safety objective. I still go on regular update courses and seminars to keep ahead of the ever changing regulations.

To go out with a can of fake smoke and a pre printed fire alarm from does not make you a FA engineer. Fires do happen and when they do and you get pulled up in court you need to be able to prove absolute comptence in what you are doing and a can of smoke and FA form is far from it.

 

[tazz]

Good advice by CFS Fire and totally agree.

Good BAFE caurses are now commonly run, in house or local colleges. They are split into technician, engineer, commissioning engineer and design engineer to name a few. These modules are a good place to start to gain BTEC qualification.
Solo test equipment is also worth looking at.

 

[Buzzard905]

I have to admit I feel uneasy being called an engineer (a technician might be closer but still not quite right) as I don't really do any sort of engineering.
However,when I am testing a system I'm much ore than a smoke pole monkey as I have a duty to highlight any changes or issues with the system since my last visit and to do so I have to know where it is failing in relation to BS5839 Part1 2002+A 2008 - I don't want to end up with me **** in court because i couldnt be bothered making thecustomer aware that the new wall or light fitting is too close to the existing smoke detector and rendering it useless.
Definately pick up at least 2 of the FIA modules(1 and 5 I think - haven't course content handy but it's design and maintennce you're looking for!!) would be my advice.

 

[Tillywolves]

You need to show competence, which would usually require a recognised course, such as the ones run by the FIA.

There are so many items that need to be right, such as sounder levels, battery stand by calculations, conformance to the category installed, (ie L1,L2 etc,) and other BS5839 2002 pt1 requirements...

There are far to many unqualified sparkies installing fire alarms, with no idea about the regulations. "Whats wrong with plastic clips ?" is a usual question Im asked, when commissioning a system.

 

[accordfire]

Sorry Adam, way off the mark here. It is very common to work to being an engineer through HNC and HND qualifications.

As for fire alarm "engineers," do me a favour. These guys may know fire alarms but they are far from being engineers. Fire alarms sysstems are not complex but you have to know the appropriate legislation. Proper electician training is far more involved.

Cheers, Ron

Ron - not sure why you see fire alarm people as so far below electricians......or what the point of the evident disdain is about.

However, let me clarify for you.

There is, as you point out a distinction between fire alarm "engineers", as commonly referred to, and fire engineers - who work a completely different field, and are actually far more extensively trained and qualified than any electrician is ever likely to be.

I presume, however, that your invective was aimed at the former - fire alarm technicians, rather than fire engineers, per se.

Fire alarm systems, however, can be exceptionally complex, even more so that working with PLCs on a regular basis, depending upon the nature of the fire system. There's a lot more to it than simply knowing the regulations.

For what it is worth too, any fire alarm installation also has to comply with the same requirements "proper electrical training" bestows upon any electrician - yes, the fundamental requirement of fire alarm installation is compliance with BS7671 in ADDITION to BS5839.

Just like "proper electrical" work, the fire alarm industry sees its share of cowboys, among them qualified electricians who think that fire alarm work is "not complex, and they have had proper electrical training" making them better in some way than guys who have spent their working lives coming to an understanding of the complexities of the nature of fire and how to detect it as early as possible - their only fault being that they have no recognised qualification with which to boast about their training.

I have to be honest, it is comments like yours here that do an immensely professional, and mostly competent essential industry much damage.

So, as you request, I would like to "do you a favour" - by hopefully improving your understanding of the situation.

As a brief example - an electrician failing to take account of one regulation or another may leave the result of an electrical installation failing to operate correctly, or in a worst case, one which results in death.

Similarly, a fire alarm technician failing to take account of one regulation or another, may be far more likely to leave an installation resulting in death. The nett effect of a fire alarm system failing to work is that people within that building receive no notification of the fire that's about to engulf them - every time.

The nett effect of an electrical system failing to work safely, is in the order of 90 times out of a hundred more likely to result only in shut down of that system.

The safety features inherrent in an electrical installation, simply cannot be built into a fire detection system.

 

[accordfire]

hi i just wonder how do yo test a fire alarm, what test needs to be done to sign it off, what qualification do you need to do the fire alarm testing job and what makes you a fire alarm engineer? is the NIC EIC Fire alarm and Emergency Lighting 2 days course enough to becoma an engineer?

The very simple answer is you test a fire alarm system as though lives depended upon it. They do.

Fire alarm testing can be carried out by any competent person. The way in which someone is judged to be competent is subjective, but the most widely accepted way of proving competence to do so is by successful completion of the FIA training modules (formerly BFSPA) - which are designed to test and inform on knowledge of applicable standards, technical competence, installation and servicing knowledge, and so on, and most importantly, design understanding.

You CANNOT effectively test a fire alarm system if you do not know whether or not it complies with the design reasons it was installed to satisfy, AND whether or not that design continues to offer the protection it was mandated to provide.

The primary way of doing that is by maintaining an up to date working knowledge of fire safety and engineering principles.

As for the NIC courses, they may be enough to show some level of competence, but in no way can you become a skilled technician in two days. You can gain a very basic understanding of whatever aspects they teach however.

Signing off on a fire alarm system involves verification against a certificated design, compliance with the standards, the design spec, electrical testing, functional testing, and some other stuff.

Be aware too, that in signing off any aspect of a fire alarm system, you place yourself in a position of liability in respect of that system. E.g. if you maintain that system and sign your sheet to say it is all working, and a subsequent fire is not detected, there will be questions asked, and hard ones at that. Not only will you be required to prove your competence at that point, but also to prove that the system was, indeed working in the way it was intended to, in compliance with the design, and that any limitations, non-compliances, or failures were duly and properly reported to the responsible person at the time of inspection with an explanation of the failure, and a properly explained recommendation for remedials (or the likely outcome should they not be completed).

My simple recommendations are - get some experience with another fire alarm company first, play around with some kit and find out what it does, and invest in good training - courses like the TTS 470 one, however, will only ever give you the basic scope of all you'll ultimately need to know.

After 25 years of involvement with fire safety, among other things, I still feel I am learning every day, and even as a qualified Fire Risk Assessor, I find new challenges, and a need to defer to expert knowledge I don't have (from qualified fire safety Engineers).

Quite simply, if you're serious about it, learn as much as you possibly can through employment AND training - and if it is an occasional thing only, maybe better leave it to someone who already has the skills - it would be money better spent in that case.

 

[Tillywolves]

lets also not forget the "fire engineers" that do replacement/additions to emergency lighting systems, then never issue a minor works form as needed..