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Discuss intermittent fire alarm fault in the Security Alarms, Door Entry and CCTV (Public) area at ElectriciansForums.net

IMO Bill the only time twin wire systems meet an acceptable level is is over 4 zones, giving the system at least 4 independent sounder/detection circuits. At least with apollo you maintanence costs will be reduced....eg Rafiki smoke ÂŁ28...apollo smoke ÂŁ8 and lot more stable.

I just dislike the fact that any cable fault (open or short circuit anyhow) is going to render a whole zone of detection AND a sounder circuit useless.

About two years ago we got called by the local FO to look at a job in a care home to give an opinion as he wasn't certain it met L1 (!).

It didn't meet "L anything". Oh - the "system" we were looking at was the remains of one, in part, as the building had caught fire. There were around 9 or 10 detectors and three call points all on one twin wire zone with four maybe five G3 squashnis.

Critically, an oil fired boiler which blew up - no cut off on the oil, fortunately at the far end of the building so only took three rooms out - no loss of life, thankfully, but also turned out no FRA, un-maintained extinguishers (also inadequate number and wrong types), fire system woefully inadequate - 22 room home on single floor - one non-maintained emergency fitting stuck outside the front door (had been put in by the sparks when a recent porch had been built)....no maintenance on any of it - batteries in the panel were date stamped "Installed 03/2002".....company fitting it not identified.

That job today, is full L1 - conventional on a Haes Surveyor with Apollo heads - quarterly maintenance plus emergency lighting fully compliant, and extinguishers correct, and present. New owners, needless to say. That job was one of the first FRA prosecutions in this area.

Back to the twin-wire thing (admittedly it wasn't the fact it was twin-wire that caused the issue - more the fact that the owner at the time said it was what they could afford - while taking private rates in all 22 rooms!) .... for me, they have too many limitations for most systems, as the redundancy is built out of them - design becomes a very big issue with them, given that. As you say, a minimum of four zones - by which time, you're probably not saving that much cable over two conventional zones and two bell circuits..... (and don't get me started on 4 core PF lol).....
 
The firm that put this in are not a specialist installer of these products, Good sparks but not specialists, hence the system....which I know was bought at CEF because that's where they go.....
 
The firm that put this in are not a specialist installer of these products, Good sparks but not specialists, hence the system....which I know was bought at CEF because that's where they go.....

It will be one of their "firescan" panels then - is it plastic or metal? Mostly I think they were re-badged CEL units based on the CB200 at the lower end.

Which kinda makes sense - I suspect most of your faults will be coming from dried out EOL capacitors - if older may be 22k uF or if newer I think are 100uF.
 
Correct Bill Relabeled under channel Fire for CEF was the CB200, 4 core cable.....now I bet we both have some long stories on that subject...lol
 
Correct Bill Relabeled under channel Fire for CEF was the CB200, 4 core cable.....now I bet we both have some long stories on that subject...lol

So many were/are lol - and that reminds me, for whichever thread it was now.... talking of CEL, the Duo-Cel also comes in a two wire version.

As for four core FP.....yes, just a few lol..... everything from the "norm" (no, not in this firm) of running bells and detection together..... to running twin wire and emergency lighting on the same cable - I kid you not. What was worse, the emergency lighting was "spurred" off the detectors in 2A connector block (I guess 5A wouldn't fit)..... producing live mains in many of the detector bases. How quickly can you say "CONDEMNED!!!!!!"
 
there was cafe i was working in while back and the alarm was faulting, and the guy was running round with smoke dectector and emny paper, do the contacts corrode, and why is this....
 
Went back today, Removed all chambers, stuffed tissue paper up into the holes where the FP comes through to the backplate as they were all filthy from crap in the loft, Disconnected all backplates and IR tested all the length's, all tested out >299Meg, replaced a backplate I didnt like, now I have set chamber no 3 (from 5) as the EOL device and fault has cleared(for now....4 hrs), if it does not come back i will re introduce chamber number 4, if it does come back I will link out chambers 1 & 2 and make 3 the 1st ect ect!!!
 
Its a long process with Rafiki....hope your getting paid for your hours, just had a customer on the phone today with one constanly going into fire, silence the panel in fire condition to check which smoke had triggered and 2 smokes on the same zone were lite, so easily contaminated, change both bet ill be back in a few months to change the rest of them.
 
Blimey, what a read... I hope you have cracked it now and i feel your pain working on one of those terrible "systems". Rafiki are defiantly up there with the worse of the worse in terms on fire systems!

Sounds like you have already gone through everything and done the usual checks.

This may sound like an obvious point, but sometimes the obvious can be easily overlooked...
If the fault returns (which i hope it doesn't) check the LED's on all devices connected to said zone are polling at the same rate.
If while the zone is in fault, you find a device where its LED is not polling or polling rapidly, chances are you may have found you knackered device...

I have found intermittent faults caused by a knackered devices on rafiki in the past simply on this alone.

As others have also previously mentioned, defiantly make a point of speaking to the client about upgrading the system to something more industry standard, reliable and not made in Disneyland. :mickey:

Firesense Concept, Alarmtronic or Kentec panels with Apollo detection = Happy system, engineer and client :)

(Fingers crossed for you, and good luck) :smile:
 
Cheers fella, it really is a poor poor system, and at times today I could of swore, the chamber guards don't retain correctly, the chambers don't lock into the back plates very well, and the more I remove them to find the fault ...the more they deteriorate , real pile of crap.
All LED flash at 20 sec apart from the EOL which flashes at 5 sec intervals, but that's meant to happen
 
You are spot on with the polling times on devices. (I forgot about the EOL 5 second thing)
and ill make you right, if you look at those heads funny they will start to deteriorate.
Horrible bit of kit Their addressable kit is worse :( The sad thing is with a fraction more R&D put into it, the twinflex non-addressable system could have turned out OK.
 

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