Kitchen Electrics and the law

[jo4nny8]

Hi all.

First post and hopefully ive put it in the right location.

I need some help with regard to a legal case i am embroiled in and am trying to find out some information.

Basically my company performed a kitchen installation in a customers house. As part of the installation we installed some new appliances (cooker, extractor, washing machine and dishwasher) All of the appliances plugged in to existing sockets that were already present and we performed NO electrics whatsoever (basically a dry cabinet fit with tiling and worktops etc)

When we removed the kitchen, an electrician who was performing some works on the customers property advised the customer that there were electrics in the kitchen that were not up to current regulations. (basically an old cooker feed in 6mm cable was being used to power 3 sockets in an area around the cooker) The customer then expected us to rectify this problem as the electrician had said they were unsafe.

After explaining to the customer that we had not charged for this and were performing NO electrics within the installation he would have to pay for the remedials required and as such we suggested that this other electrician is best to do the work as he is already on site. The customer agreed and we left it at that.

Now the customer (6 months later) is taking me to court over a few items and the main point is with these electrics and that he now has to have a whole new kitchen (the quote has come from this other electrican) and wants £8000 off me because of this.

My terms and conditions state we wont do electrics and also that if there is extra work we charge for it but im now concerned i should have done the electrics.

As far as im concerned, if a 17th edition electrician says work is required and he is doing electrics on a house, then he is liable for all testing of the circuits and making sure that it conforms to the current regs. Am i right or am i liable???

Can anyone help and thanks for the time
John

 

[johnboy6083]

inmy mind you are not responsible for the wiring, just as if im wiring your house, im not responsible for the plumbing!
How are your kitchen fitters supposed to be competent enough to comment upon the wiring? if you stated in your terms and conditions that you dont touch the electruics, and you didnt do anything other than plug leads into it, then i think you are high and dry.

 

[jo4nny8]

We always get an sparky in to do anything that we either a, think is beyond our capabilities - new circuits etc, or b. we know needs certifying. Basically the only thing our kitchen installer would do is wire new plug faces on (no wiring alterations) or take sockets off to tile (just unscrew) or in extreme circumstances remove a socket to put a cabinet in and then put the socket back inside the cabinet. again without doing any wiring. The odd time we might remove old under cabinet lighting and put new wires into the same spur on the wall which as far as i am aware is classed as maintenance and doesnt need certifying.

Can anyone confirm if the electrician on site is liable as he did some electrics in the kitchen area and it would be nice to be able to go to court with proof from somewehre (wiring regs or something) that shows that he is actually liable and he should have altered them and not us

 

[ian.settle1]

Hi all.

First post and hopefully ive put it in the right location.

I need some help with regard to a legal case i am embroiled in and am trying to find out some information.

Basically my company performed a kitchen installation in a customers house. As part of the installation we installed some new appliances (cooker, extractor, washing machine and dishwasher) All of the appliances plugged in to existing sockets that were already present and we performed NO electrics whatsoever (basically a dry cabinet fit with tiling and worktops etc)

When we removed the kitchen, an electrician who was performing some works on the customers property advised the customer that there were electrics in the kitchen that were not up to current regulations. (basically an old cooker feed in 6mm cable was being used to power 3 sockets in an area around the cooker) The customer then expected us to rectify this problem as the electrician had said they were unsafe.

After explaining to the customer that we had not charged for this and were performing NO electrics within the installation he would have to pay for the remedials required and as such we suggested that this other electrician is best to do the work as he is already on site. The customer agreed and we left it at that.

Now the customer (6 months later) is taking me to court over a few items and the main point is with these electrics and that he now has to have a whole new kitchen (the quote has come from this other electrican) and wants £8000 off me because of this.

My terms and conditions state we wont do electrics and also that if there is extra work we charge for it but im now concerned i should have done the electrics.

As far as im concerned, if a 17th edition electrician says work is required and he is doing electrics on a house, then he is liable for all testing of the circuits and making sure that it conforms to the current regs. Am i right or am i liable???

Can anyone help and thanks for the time
John

Did your customer sign any paperwork accepting your T & C stating that you where not doing any electrics, if they did I would say you don't have to worry but if they have a solicitor he must think they have a case.

Could also be trying it on and get you to pay for the extra electrical work.

 

[telectrix]

agreed. as long as you have stated that you would not do any electrical work, i think you're covered. if the customer let you go ahead believing that the electrical installation was sound, when he knew it wasn't, he's trying to pull a fast one on you, thinking you're a soft target. you need a solicitor on the case, get sloicitor to send a strongly worded letter stating that you will fight him all the way and land him with your costs.

 

[jo4nny8]

oh ive got full legal cover and the customer is doing it themselves. it started off as small claims which they can only claim upto 5K but now theyve decided to go whats called fast track and can get up to 25k. My solicitor says i have a good chance but its still really concerning that this can happen. I had to call the cops 3 times as we were getting abuse and threats from the customer while we were doing the job.

Ive been doing this for over 10 years must have done about 1000 kitchens or bathrooms and ive never had this kind of hassle.

 

[nickblake]

nothing wrong with using an old cooker supply to supply sockets as long as the test resaults are satisfactory , and you are right in saying if an electrician is carrying out work then its his responcabilty to ensure the work he is carrying out is to the current regulations ,but does not nesseserily mean the complete installation is to current regulations , there is a box on a minor works and EIC that states condition of existing installations as long as this is completed with any defects etc then he's covered , and to be honest the one's that should be fully compliant to current regulation are mainly new installations from July 2008

 

[tonys]

Put it this way, if this goes fast track and you do win, it could cost the claimant a lot of money, but on the other hand could cost you a lot of money.

Is your legal cover the type where your given legal advice to start with and they only take it on if your in a very strong position to win ?

 

[jo4nny8]

He is quoting BS7671:2008 as says we should have rectified the electrics to this standard!

Is there anywhere i can get proof that its only installations performed after july 2008 that have to be compliant?

 

[jo4nny8]

Put it this way, of this goes fast track and you do win, it could cost the claimant a lot of money, but on the other hand could cost you a lot of money.

Is your legal cover the type where your given legal advice to start with and they only take it on if your in a very strong position to win ?

i have 50k cover and up to now they are fully fighting it and sending a solicitor to court and i am just a witness. now it is fast track they say they have to make sure i have a 51% chance of winning or they wont cover me

 

[tonys]

i have 50k cover and up to now they are fully fighting it and sending a solicitor to court and i am just a witness. now it is fast track they say they have to make sure i have a 51% chance of winning or they wont cover me

Do they think you have the 51% chance ?

 

[jo4nny8]

yeah but im still concerned as this could send me under.

Is there any sort of legal evidense out there that proves i am not liable?? does it state it in the regs or anything

 

[tonys]

yeah but im still concerned as this could send me under.

Is there any sort of legal evidense out there that proves i am not liable?? does it state it in the regs or anything

You have to look at this from the angle of a consumer, there's plenty of free advice out there for them.

Things likes, could your Terms and Conditions be deemed unfair ?

 

[jo4nny8]

i dont think they are because they only state that we reserve the right to charge for extra works which we find after the installation has started and they have 48 hours to get other quotes.

 

[nickblake]

Its a difficult situaltion for you , But if you didnt carry out any works on the electrics in the kitchen then there should be no problem as your not an electrician ,you cant be expected to know the regs , if you changed the face plates sockets etc then thats a different matter you have altered the installation , but you have said youve not touched the installation so thats your case , if some one else has spotted defects in the installation then its up to them , the only real thing is to check your contract and see if it says no work on the electrical installation then theoretically you should be covered , there are millions of installations that do not comply with current regulations ,and as i have said the only ones that should fully comply are new installations from 2008 , anything prior to that will comply with earlier versions of the regs or not at all , Any work carried out on these installations should comply with the current regs and doesnt nesseserily mean the complete installation should be compliant but the alterations you carry out should , also work in kitchen area's is notifiable under Part P of the building regs