Kitchen installer expanding.

[thebartman]

Hi guys, chances are I might get flamed for this but what the hell....

I currently run a kitchen design and installation business and the electrical side is problematic for us, we subcontract so depend on various people across our area however, at times this makes quoting for jobs difficult, erodes our profit and puts the quality of our service in the hands of others so the obvious solution us to bring it in house.

Weve spoken to training providers and have identified the C&G 4141-01 / 2393 / 2392-10 / 2382 as a potential option.

The problem arises with part P certification, namely getting the work signed off until we have enough of a portfolio to join a registered body as this line if work wouldnt be our daily bread a butter.

So, my question is, how realistic is third party or building control sign off in this situation and how does it work?

Obviously I've asked a few of the bodies for more info but have yet to get replies so thought I might get an outline here.

Apologies in advance if this is a much covered topic but really would appreciate some help and advice.

 

[Megawatt]

This is interesting. Do you think the short courses provided enough practical experience and hands on learning or did you have to seek some elsewhere?

Hire a qualified electrician get to know them and use the same company for your upgrades

all schools do is put you in a position to learn the trade but you will learn a whole lot more. Nothing like on the job training

 

[Toneyz]

I think for the O.P. is that every installation will be different. Some will be textbook and easy to do alterations, some will be a bodge to start with eg spurs, off spurs, off spurs where extra sockets have been required for the existing kitchen. Yhis is something that these training centres can not prepare you for.

 

[JK-Electrical]

I

I think for the O.P. is that every installation will be different. Some will be textbook and easy to do alterations, some will be a bodge to start with eg spurs, off spurs, off spurs where extra sockets have been required for the existing kitchen. Yhis is something that these training centres can not prepare you for.

Not to mention .....

.... sockets positioned directly behind appliances making them an absolute b*****d to access when carrying-out Zs and portable appliance testing, or fault-finding.

.... downlights with basic insulation showing that have been incorrectly terminated directly into a choc connectors instead of an enclosure and installed too close to joists.

.... ovens and hobs wired with incorrectly sized and inappropriate flexes

.... alterations and additions and new circuits added to kitchens without adequate bonding and RCD protection being in place.

.... no certification issued to clients upon completion of work undertaken.

This is what I more often than not discover in recently refurbished kitchens. Clearly not the work of professional electricians who know what they're doing and care about the quality of their workmanship.

 

[Toneyz]

I


Not to mention .....

.... sockets positioned directly behind appliances making them an absolute b*****d to access when carrying-out Zs and portable appliance testing, or fault-finding.

.... downlights with basic insulation showing that have been incorrectly terminated directly into a choc connectors instead of an enclosure and installed too close to joists.

.... ovens and hobs wired with incorrectly sized and inappropriate flexes

.... alterations and additions and new circuits added to kitchens without adequate bonding and RCD protection being in place.

.... no certification issued to clients upon completion of work undertaken.

This is what I more often than not discover in recently refurbished kitchens. Clearly not the work of professional electricians who know what they're doing and care about the quality of their workmanship.

Whilst I agree with the above I was more referring to it is hard enough for us experienced electricians sometimes to suss out the existing installation before we start an alteration yet alone someone who has been on one of these short courses. I would like to hear from someone who had been on one of these short courses how they found it straight in the deep end.

 

[Pretty Mouth]

This is interesting. Do you think the short courses provided enough practical experience and hands on learning or did you have to seek some elsewhere?

Whilst I agree with the above I was more referring to it is hard enough for us experienced electricians sometimes to suss out the existing installation before we start an alteration yet alone someone who has been on one of these short courses. I would like to hear from someone who had been on one of these short courses how they found it straight in the deep end.

I already had some electrical experience, plus many years working in construction, had educated myself to an extent, and never went straight in at the deep end, more a slow gradual, ongoing immersion. The course gives the basics but real world experience is key - the advise during the course was get experience with an experienced spark.

If people are led to believe they can go from zero to hero in the duration of the course, they'll be disappointed. That said, for me and the range of work I do, it was an adequate starting point.

 

[davesparks]

Definitely food for thought guys however were not expanding per say, more looking at ways to be more efficient and offer a more rounded service. I'd love to be in a place where I could afford more staff but from a cost to benefit perspective were probably not there yet.

The point about cutting corners probably says more about some 'kitchen fitters' than the trade generally, some kitchen fitters cant fit a worktop for example, that's just not how we work. Quality first.

One thing that has sparked my interest about the short courses not offering the correct qualifications, the training providers we have spoken to are saying the complete opposite, the line they are giving us is, employee will be qualified to C&G level and all the would need would be building control or third party sign off following works.

There seems to be a disparity between the previous comments and what the training providers are saying and I'm wondering what I'm missing?

Thanks for the input guys.

Training providerd are running a business, they will tell you anything and everything they can to get your money.

As far as short courses go, would you employ a kitchen fitter who has done a few weeks training in a classroom and has no real world experience then send them out on their own without any supervision from experienced fitters to fit kitchens?
If you send your fitters on this course then they will get taught the basic theory, none of the real world practical and then when they are working they will have nobody experienced to supervise them.

The other problem is the course will only teach them how electrucs is done in the ideal world of the textbooks.
The hardest part of the electrical a work in a kitchen refit is often unpicking the existing installation and working out how to make it safe before installing the new electrics. A short course will never be able to teach you how to safely deal with the hundreds of different bodges and DIY messes you will encounter in the real world.

 

[KennyKen]

Thank Christ I’m not in the Domestic game

 

[Deleted account]

I’m also a late comer into electrics. I’m 47. I also didn’t take the apprentice route.

12 years ago I did the C& G 2&3 ( 3 years, 2 full days a week)

I realised 5hat wasn’t enough to start working out there on tools so...

... I did the domestic installer thinking it would give me that experience to actually do the job.
10 weeks 1 evening a week.

It was a real disappointment. If I hadn’t done the C&G prior I would have been lost. Most guys on course hadn’t and just didn’t have a clue.
No one failed. You pay your money you paid for a pass.

Course basically gave enough to do minor works but no more. Replace or add a socket or light to existing circuit and do testing with MFT.

I then spent 2 years working with sparkies I know and doing minor works. This is when I really learnt my stuff.

Then I got registered and since then I’ve done
2394, 2395, 2396, ev charger. And any free seminars available.
I actually love learning which is why I’ve been succes#ful.

 

[Strima]

I would like to hear from someone who had been on one of these short courses how they found it straight in the deep end.

A very steep learning curve.

 

[richy3333]

3 weeks learning gets you this. Says it all really. Appleby boxes used as surface pattress boxes. Cooker switches used as an isolator to a fixed load. SWA hanging and ripping the CU part. Line hanging out of main switch. No bonding to gas or water. Allegedly he spent 3 days polishing this turd.

I'd not employ a kitchen fitter in my home after doing a 3/5/8 week course.

 

[GBDamo]

3 weeks learning gets you this. Says it all really. Appleby boxes used as surface pattress boxes. Cooker switches used as an isolator to a fixed load. SWA hanging and ripping the CU part. Line hanging out of main switch. No bonding to gas or water. Allegedly he spent 3 days polishing this turd.
View attachment 51293

I'd not employ a kitchen fitter in my home after doing a 3/5/8 week course.

How did you find out it was a short course "electrician" that did that.

Ive had to go back to remedy similar from a time served spark, granted one that couldn't give a fig, effectively the boots i filled. Still stumble on his little droppings feom time to time.

Dont assume that some thing done wrongly is done by someone who doesn't know any better, quite often they do, they just don't care.

 

[GBDamo]

Oh, and it only took me two and a half days so someones BSing you.

 

[richy3333]

How did you find out it was a short course "electrician" that did that.

Ive had to go back to remedy similar from a time served spark, granted one that couldn't give a fig, effectively the boots i filled. Still stumble on his little droppings feom time to time.

Dont assume that some thing done wrongly is done by someone who doesn't know any better, quite often they do, they just don't care.

I found out because I asked him and he went around telling everyone he was now a spark because he'd been on a 3 week course. I have a witness to our conversation. He's also proud to be Part P 'registered' which is useless in Scotland as we have different Regs. That photo is a small snapshot of the things this bloke did wrong. I've literally hundreds of photos and videos of his handiwork as we had to remedy it. This is a 3 phase 200A supply.

I dont want to derail the thread and I appreciate there's good and bad in all aspects of training but I have an apprentice just starting his second year and it reminds me (I trained 20+ years ago) how much you learn doing the training the proper way. I also appreciate that I see more bad work around my area from the short course 'electricians' than proper apprentice trained ones.

Hopefully in Scotland protected title will come in sometime soon (next few years) as there is momentum for it to do so and in time will weed out these people from the industry. I can but be hopeful.

 

[Baddegg]

I found out because I asked him and he went around telling everyone he was now a spark because he'd been on a 3 week course. I have a witness to our conversation. He's also proud to be Part P 'registered' which is useless in Scotland as we have different Regs. That photo is a small snapshot of the things this bloke did wrong. I've literally hundreds of photos and videos of his handiwork as we had to remedy it. This is a 3 phase 200A supply.

I dont want to derail the thread and I appreciate there's good and bad in all aspects of training but I have an apprentice just starting his second year and it reminds me (I trained 20+ years ago) how much you learn doing the training the proper way. I also appreciate that I see more bad work around my area from the short course 'electricians' than proper apprentice trained ones.

Hopefully in Scotland protected title will come in sometime soon (next few years) as there is momentum for it to do so and in time will weed out these people from the industry. I can but be hopeful.

People like that would always produce work of quality work regardless of the amount of training they receive....they are born lazy...

 

[Toneyz]

I already had some electrical experience, plus many years working in construction, had educated myself to an extent, and never went straight in at the deep end, more a slow gradual, ongoing immersion. The course gives the basics but real world experience is key - the advise during the course was get experience with an experienced spark.

If people are led to believe they can go from zero to hero in the duration of the course, they'll be disappointed. That said, for me and the range of work I do, it was an adequate starting point.

Pretty Mouth For what you posted you have taken a level headed approach please note my comments were not aimed at anyone in particular.