Kitchen installer expanding.

[thebartman]

Hi guys, chances are I might get flamed for this but what the hell....

I currently run a kitchen design and installation business and the electrical side is problematic for us, we subcontract so depend on various people across our area however, at times this makes quoting for jobs difficult, erodes our profit and puts the quality of our service in the hands of others so the obvious solution us to bring it in house.

Weve spoken to training providers and have identified the C&G 4141-01 / 2393 / 2392-10 / 2382 as a potential option.

The problem arises with part P certification, namely getting the work signed off until we have enough of a portfolio to join a registered body as this line if work wouldnt be our daily bread a butter.

So, my question is, how realistic is third party or building control sign off in this situation and how does it work?

Obviously I've asked a few of the bodies for more info but have yet to get replies so thought I might get an outline here.

Apologies in advance if this is a much covered topic but really would appreciate some help and advice.

 

[JK-Electrical]

I found out because I asked him and he went around telling everyone he was now a spark because he'd been on a 3 week course. I have a witness to our conversation. He's also proud to be Part P 'registered' which is useless in Scotland as we have different Regs. That photo is a small snapshot of the things this bloke did wrong. I've literally hundreds of photos and videos of his handiwork as we had to remedy it. This is a 3 phase 200A supply.

The day I was undercut by a wetpants for an EICR job was the day that I realised just how far down the pan our industry has gone. This joker considered himself to be an electrician solely on the basis of him having completed a two-day BS 7671 course and having passed the open-book exam. I kid you not. Scary stuff indeed.

I dont want to derail the thread and I appreciate there's good and bad in all aspects of training but I have an apprentice just starting his second year and it reminds me (I trained 20+ years ago) how much you learn doing the training the proper way.

Like this?

There is no substitute for experience. Experience cannot be bought at any price and it certainly can't be obtained via any short course. Experience is everything in our game, and it comes only with years of hard graft, application and dedication. And therein lies the problem. Some people desire only to make as much money as possible in the shortest time possible with as little effort as possible. Do a short course to get a foot on the bottom rung of ladder by all means, but don't ever delude yourself that five weeks later you've climbed to the top and are now an electrician ready to begin making some serious bucks.

I respect members such as Paignton Pete and Sparky Chick who have used short courses as a springboard to greater things. I tip my hat to those amongst us who have gone on to do higher-level courses, devoted themselves to several years of dedicated study, and who have gained experience the hard way by initially working for nothing as a spark's mate, or for little financial reward. That's real sacrifice. That's real commitment. That's real dedication. That's a real statement of intent.

I commend those who have taken this approach and have gradually evolved to become professional electricians. Take a bow. But for those who are motivated solely by financial gain and care not about anything else, least of all working within the scope of the regulations, I hold in contempt.

I also appreciate that I see more bad work around my area from the short course 'electricians' than proper apprentice trained ones.

Alas, this has been my experience too. Wetpants, kitchen fitters and bathroom fitters are the culprits more often than not. The standard of 'workmanship' that I've seen from these guys in the greater Glasgow area is truly horrendous. These guys are proof-positive that short courses don't work when those doing them couldn't give a ---- about anything other than making a quick buck. However, the fact that several members of the forum have used short courses as an entrance to the industry then gradually progressed upwards provides evidence to the contrary.

Ultimately, for those who hold a burning desire to become electricians and are willing to commit themselves to achieving this goal and make sacrifices along the way, short courses must be viewed in a positive light. But when short courses are enabling charlatans to enter our industry and bestowing credibility upon cowboy operators, short courses can be only detrimental.

Hopefully in Scotland protected title will come in sometime soon (next few years) as there is momentum for it to do so and in time will weed out these people from the industry. I can but be hopeful.

SELECT's campaign for protection of title for Scottish electricians is now unstoppable. Support continues to grow, and it's a matter of when it happens, rather than if. The sooner, the better.

https://www.select.org.uk/four-more-politicians-back-selects-wall-of-support

SELECT Managing Director Alan Wilson believes that regulation of the electrical industry is vital if we are to improve safety for both domestic and commercial consumers across Scotland. I share that belief.

 

[KennyKen]

Yeah I agree with the success stories of sparkies applying themselves who have undertaken the short course route. These short courses don’t exist here in Aus. So they are very puzzled when you have these conversations.

 

[Midwest]

@thebartman, whether it’s a short course electrician or one that has served an apprenticeship, I would suggest you keep looking for a competent electrician or company of.

A lot of my work in the domestic market was kitchen & bathroom refurbishments. I was regularly used by the same company for the work, and I subbied to another electrical contractor who worked specifically for another kitchen company. I even got approached by another kitchen company, when I did some repairs for them. Had to decline them because of the work load it would of generated. So I understand your frustration.

As the others have said, you need experience & knowledge, not just qualifications. You just have to keep looking.

I know some other kitchen installers have taken your route for business reasons or just to make more money, but ‘we’ don’t think it’s a very professional approach.

I know of a plumber on another forum who does bathrooms, who does all the electrical 1st fix, and gets a 3rd party sparks in to test etc. But the two don’t always follow that procedure, and it’s apparent from pics & description that the regs are not properly followed. I don’t understand people running a professional business, and taking short cuts like that.

Customers pay good money to have work carried out in their homes; they should expect to receive a professional finish.

 

[Deleted account]

Thanks JK.

Five words or more

 

[Intoelectrics]

When I registered about 9 years ago nic insisted on 2 years on tools relevant electrical experience , however I am gobsmacked to discover that is no longer the case on reading the registration criteria.
GBDamo you are quite correct.

Wow.

Not sure what more to say about that.

I'm not surprised the schemes are there to make money, if they are too stringent on the criteria for registration then they will lose potential members thus money!
Gone are the days when being a time served fully qualified experienced trades person carried some weight.

 

[Intoelectrics]

@ The Bartman,

There is nothing wrong with gaining the qualifications required and personally I don't worry too much about whether its from a short course or not. The capability & aptitude of the person doing the course is far more important. But there is no substitute for experience! I learnt 90% of my electrical knowledge from experience (good and bad) and am still learning 30 years later.
I'm multi skilled, plumbing, joinery engineering... I've fitted umpteen kitchens, bathrooms... knowing how to correctly install the electrics is absolute paramount especially during the design process. The electrician needs to have a good understanding of the current install per job and be able to identify potential problems and offer solutions to ensure it's done to the minimum requirements set out in the current regs. This can only be attained by experience.