Labour Manifesto

[baldelectrician]

Give them the vote and if they vote to leave then fair enough. I know quite a few Scots, and only one of them is in the leave category. And only that same one has any time for Miss Sturgeon.

That's the point
The Scottish Parliament (the SNP plus the Greens) have a majority for another independence referendum which is being ignored
If we are really bleeding the UK dry they would be throwing a referendum at us

had they given us lots more powers (as promised in the infamous VOW) and had we still been in the EU we would not be here now.

The UK cannot have it both ways
They are happy to have Boris Jonston as Prime Minister elected across the UK on 43.6% of the UK vote (25% in Scotland) yet ignore another result
The Tories specifically went in the the recent UK general election with a mantra stating 'send Nicola Sturgeon a message and vote Conservative to send a No to a second referendum message'

https://twitter.com/x/status/1206188069772283904

 

[rapparee]

Scotland gains full control of her affairs ( including the option to leave the EU any time we wish - unlike the current situation)
We also enter a union in which we have a veto as well as a say.
Add to that a Scotland inside the EU will have 27 countries at our back as opposed to the current situation we have in the UK where we are ignored and treated lie an abusive partner treats their spouse.

An obvious example is how the EU defended the interests of Ireland in the recent negotiations.

 

[Midwest]

I won’t pretend to know to any great depth the arguments put back and forth here (I don’t want to really but I’ll admit they are good from both sides) but I can’t understand how leaving one United Kingdom and joining another can be termed as “independence”? I think you’d be hard pressed to find any member of the EU to deny that the ultimate end goal (albeit long term as it stands) is one state controlled from Brussels.....what does Scotland gain here?.......

50% of the Scots hate the English more than they hate the French, see #186. The other 50% either live in the rest of the uk, or just hate SNP. I would suggest it’s up to them to decide.

 

[littlespark]

More than 50% voted in indyref1 to stay in the uk last time, and we knew damn well brexit was round the corner.

I’ll vote for any other party that will reverse the minimum pricing on alcohol.
I need to drive 7 miles to England to get cheaper booze
[automerge]1577299527[/automerge]
I’m going to pack the van with English booze when I take my daughter back up to Aberdeen and sell it to the students

 

[baldelectrician]

More than 50% voted in indyref1 to stay in the uk last time, and we knew damn well brexit was round the corner.

From the better together archive

 

[snowhead]

I'm not Scottish nor do I have any connections.
If there was a vote in the U.K on whether to allow Scotland an independence vote, then I'd vote yes, lets get it sorted out once and for all, again..

BUT the SNP need to be very carefull about what they wish for, just because they got in with a mandate for an E.U referendum doesn't mean that everyone that voted SNP would vote leave.
The SNP could easilly fall into the same trap as Labour, thinking they were going to win hands down, but fall on their face.

 

[Baddegg]

Farcical really this whole thing seems based on a hatred that’s not felt on both sides....I don’t know any English people, other than in jest, that want Scotland to leave myself included ?

 

[Darkwood]

The Scottish Parliament (the SNP plus the Greens) have a majority for another independence referendum which is being ignored
The SNP is a party with one goal it always has been, Scotland won the chance to hold a referendum and in Nichola Sturgeon own words it was stated it is a once in a generation chance, also as part of their campaign they made it clear if the Conservatives won with a majority it could lead to us leaving the EU through a referendum, as this was all part of the campaign and they still lost then they do not have a mandate to leave as reflected by her own words.
If we are really bleeding the UK dry they would be throwing a referendum at us

Scotland for the last 30yrs has been heavily subsidised by the the rest of us, its GDP deficit is 3 times greater than England and it in no way qualifies to even rejoin the EU if they stick to their usual strict entry terms, now it is fine making a loose claim that we would in this situation be throwing a referendum at you but the UK may save on the bailouts but as Scotland would see its economy hit harder and taxes rise it would see trade been damaged to the point it is cheaper to be together and pay into Scotland than it leave.

had they given us lots more powers (as promised in the infamous VOW) and had we still been in the EU we would not be here now.

The Irony in this comment can only be lost on a Remainer, so in essence you want to take more powers away from London which you can effectively vote against and make your case and instead hand them over to the EU who do not give you such rights.

The UK cannot have it both ways
They are happy to have Boris Jonston as Prime Minister elected across the UK on 43.6% of the UK vote (25% in Scotland) yet ignore another result

When you went to the poll booth in a general election or referendum on the EU you do so as a nation not a separate country, this is fully acknowledged and understood 'or should be' by any voter, in taking part you give losers consent, to make these claims you do is ignoring or been ignorant of how our democratic system works, I never heard anyone complain about the voting system until after they lost the vote.

The Tories specifically went in the the recent UK general election with a mantra stating 'send Nicola Sturgeon a message and vote Conservative to send a No to a second referendum message'

What part of United do you not understand, you are not voting as Scotland, you are voting a part of the United Kingdom, this argument is just SNP rhetoric that has no legal backing, my town voted to leave, the next town voted to remain but they do not start claiming they should be allowed to make there own mind up and be given special treatment .. again! The term is 'losers consent' and this is what you go into a voting booth knowing and if you do not then I am sorry but you need to educate yourself on the history of our democratic system... You have your own views and I have mine and even if you live in a area that has a majority that favours yours, it does not mean anything if this isn't reflected in the total tally of votes across the system, things do change when we discuss countries as a whole and you were given a referendum, it was clearly stated by the SNP that it was once in a generation opportunity and it was also clearly stated that if you voted to stay with the UK then you could be leaving the EU - you voted to stay thus there exists no mandate for another indyref - the problem we have is the SNP has nowhere to go or anything to do unless it is driving a desire to leave the UK because that is all the parties historical goal is, if the EU referendum never happened it would be something else driving it like say Sturgeon stubbed her big toe or something so lets call a referendum.

I would be happy to add citations of Sturgeons quotes from 2014, I would be happy to show you the amount the UK has supplemented Scotland over the last 30yrs and how it is the SNP's own survey that highlights all this but what I cannot do is explain how Scotland can survive outside the UK without suffering a 10% hit at losing our generous funding and without slamming hefty tax hikes on you all, given that your deficit is triple ours to start with. The claims the N Sea oil can support this have long since been debunked and can no longer even be factored into the equation given the diminishing stocks and relatively low cost of oil plus the push to move away from it anyway.

PS - I am not anti Scot as I have many friends who are Scottish, what I don't like is the SNP's deliberate attempt to try put a wedge between us, they may have had a case if the UK been supplemented by Scotland or even if there government was excelling and making the UK a laughing stock but that is far from the truth, given that per head Scottish people receive more in health education and many other areas it quite difficult to understand how they are failing so badly in these areas in comparison, if you leave then a massive funding supplement is lost to all these already failing key systems but maybe that is what it takes, maybe when the money is their own it might not keep throwing supplemented money to try fix a broken system, that is where Labour failed badly when they were booted out and left us skint.

 

[plugsandsparks]

At the moment, its got to be one step at a time. Lets implement UK ref 2016, leave the eu properly, let the dust settle, then deal with 2nd referendum. The border alone will be a nightmare depending one how the UK leaves the EU, if the NI border is anything to go by.

I do have a mistrust of the SNP that their barely hidden agenda is to stall the UK Brexit which i do have a problem with.

So i suspect the SNP may just have to wait their turn

 

[baldelectrician]

At the moment, its got to be one step at a time. Lets implement UK ref 2016, leave the eu properly, let the dust settle, then deal with 2nd referendum. The border alone will be a nightmare depending one how the UK leaves the EU, if the NI border is anything to go by.

I do have a mistrust of the SNP that their barely hidden agenda is to stall the UK Brexit which i do have a problem with.

So i suspect the SNP may just have to wait their turn

I disagree
Thats like saying let's watch the rest of the UK jump off a cliff and see what happens
Northern Ireland voted to stay in the EU and are (rightly) getting a differential deal, Scotland voted by a larger margin to stay and are being draged out
This wait and see is in essence undemocratic- it is saying to te Scottish Parliament - you cannot decide if and when you can leave, sit down, shut up and know your place. Democracy is what Westminster says and Westminster can pick and choose which parts it uses.

There is a March for independence in Glasgow on 11th January, the last one had over 100,000 ( equivalent to 1m in London as Scots are less than 10% of the population) yet received little or no coverage in UK media and was on RT, France 24. Euronews, German TV etc.

 

[DPG]

As I say, give them the vote (again) and see what happens.

 

[Zerax]

I disagree
Thats like saying let's watch the rest of the UK jump off a cliff and see what happens
Northern Ireland voted to stay in the EU and are (rightly) getting a differential deal, Scotland voted by a larger margin to stay and are being draged out
This wait and see is in essence undemocratic- it is saying to te Scottish Parliament - you cannot decide if and when you can leave, sit down, shut up and know your place. Democracy is what Westminster says and Westminster can pick and choose which parts it uses.

There is a March for independence in Glasgow on 11th January, the last one had over 100,000 ( equivalent to 1m in London as Scots are less than 10% of the population) yet received little or no coverage in UK media and was on RT, France 24. Euronews, German TV etc.

Firstly... can you please stop repeating that line about "jumping off cliffs" !!! It is simply highly emotive language used to scare people... that hasn't worked on most people, but seems to have scared you.

Secondly... the EU referendum was for the whole of the UK... no option was given to have locally implemented results. So it doesn't matter what the vote was in Scotland, Salisbury, Scarborough or indeed St Albans. The latter, if you remember, has just elected a Lib Dem MP... on a mandate of cancelling Brexit. So do you now suggest that we build a 30' high fence around that city and allow them to declare their allegiance to Juncker and co. ??

And lastly... please do enjoy your march on Jan 11th. In case it wasn't explained to you properly... it's all irrelevant. You may have 100,000 attend but what about the 100,000 that don't attend ?? the ones that want to remain in the union ?? If you want to demonstrate the will of the people you need to organise a referendum. Oh, hang on you already have... and it said remain. When will the penny drop ??

 

[baldelectrician]

Firstly... can you please stop repeating that line about "jumping off cliffs" !!! It is simply highly emotive language used to scare people... that hasn't worked on most people, but seems to have scared you.

Secondly... the EU referendum was for the whole of the UK... no option was given to have locally implemented results. So it doesn't matter what the vote was in Scotland, Salisbury, Scarborough or indeed St Albans. The latter, if you remember, has just elected a Lib Dem MP... on a mandate of cancelling Brexit. So do you now suggest that we build a 30' high fence around that city and allow them to declare their allegiance to Juncker and co. ??

And lastly... please do enjoy your march on Jan 11th. In case it wasn't explained to you properly... it's all irrelevant. You may have 100,000 attend but what about the 100,000 that don't attend ?? the ones that want to remain in the union ?? If you want to demonstrate the will of the people you need to organise a referendum. Oh, hang on you already have... and it said remain. When will the penny drop ??

Northern Ireland voted to stay in and are (rightly) staying so there is a locally implemented result there, if it is possible there it is possible in Scotland

Thank you for telling me democracy in Scotland is irrelevant my point is that the duly elected Scottish Parliament has voted for and requested a referendum
It's nice democracy where a country enters a union with a larger partner and can only leave when the larger 'equal' partner deems permission.

We had a referendum in 2014 and were told explicitly that if we voted NO to independence we would guarantee our place in the EU

I know you don't like the cliff scenario but that's a difference of opinion, Scotland and the rest of the UK are in a voluntary union and Scotland (through her parliament) has decided we want to put that choice to the people in 2020 (or the following year)

 

[Zerax]

Northern Ireland voted to stay in and are (rightly) staying so there is a locally implemented result there, if it is possible there it is possible in Scotland

Thank you for telling me democracy in Scotland is irrelevant my point is that the duly elected Scottish Parliament has voted for and requested a referendum
It's nice democracy where a country enters a union with a larger partner and can only leave when the larger 'equal' partner deems permission.

We had a referendum in 2014 and were told explicitly that if we voted NO to independence we would guarantee our place in the EU

I know you don't like the cliff scenario but that's a difference of opinion, Scotland and the rest of the UK are in a voluntary union and Scotland (through her parliament) has decided we want to put that choice to the people in 2020 (or the following year)

You seem to be living in a parallel universe...

NI are not staying in the EU... they will leave alongside Wales, Scotland and England. You might have confused yourself with the transition arrangements that have been constructed in such a way as to allow the EU to agree to remove the 'backstop'.

I have never said that democracy is irrelevant in Scotland... I said that the referendum was for the whole of the UK and that individual areas cannot elect for different treatment. (read back to my example of St Albans)

It would appear that you'd like to have a Scottish independence referendum every year until you get the result that you personally agree with. That's an odd kind of democracy !

It would be highly beneficial for the Scottish people, if the Scottish government used their authority to properly govern Scotland (in areas like education and health) rather than pursue the sole issue of a 'neverendum' ! Scotland have vast devolved powers, but have chosen to use very few of them.

 

[baldelectrician]

You seem to be living in a parallel universe...

NI are not staying in the EU... they will leave alongside Wales, Scotland and England. You might have confused yourself with the transition arrangements that have been constructed in such a way as to allow the EU to agree to remove the 'backstop'.
NI are effectively in the UK and the single market / customs union and they will have (correctly) a chance to vote on keeping it through the assembly at Stormont whilst Scotland cannot have a vote despite the SNP having yet another win whilst having a 2nd indyref in their manifesto
Whilst you are on about how many votes do we want.... the answer is as many as the democratically elected Scottish Parliament wish to vote for.

I have never said that democracy is irrelevant in Scotland... I said that the referendum was for the whole of the UK and that individual areas cannot elect for different treatment. (read back to my example of St Albans)
Scotland is not an 'individual area' it is (apparently) an 'equal partner in the UK family of nations' as an equal partner Scotland will have the right to change her mind as the circumstances change

It would appear that you'd like to have a Scottish independence referendum every year until you get the result that you personally agree with. That's an odd kind of democracy !
Like the 'odd' democracy where Westminster politicians wanted a 2nd EU referendum, or where the Conservative UK government brought the leave deal back on several occasions- so it's OK for Westminster to change their mind as long as the pesky Scots know their place?

It would be highly beneficial for the Scottish people, if the Scottish government used their authority to properly govern Scotland (in areas like education and health) rather than pursue the sole issue of a 'neverendum' ! Scotland have vast devolved powers, but have chosen to use very few of them.

• The Scottish Government use the powers they have, they have control over :
• Local rates - they have exempted lots of small businesses from rates (something the UK government are only talking about)
• They have changed the income tax system so now people earning under £26993 will pay the same or less tax than the rest of the UK. People on the minimum wage are better off. They control less than 25% of the taxes (only PAYE earned income)
• They changed the building standards in 2007 and 2014 to prevent and effectively ban the cladding used in Greenfell from being used in Scotland.
• The control some aspects of benefits (only 15%) but they have stopped using ATOS and introduced a carers supplement as well as payments to reduce child poverty.

Detailed above

From the map below (this is from the past few weeks) you can see that Scotland is now not in the UK / EU top areas for poverty

Scotland has very little powers (and over 100 have been removed in the past year), we need out of the UK as the UK is politically right wing and Scotland is politically left wing.