Live Working

[telectrix]

hahaha, ****

 

[Geordie Spark]

hahaha, ****

:love:

 

[Adam W]

unless the customer cannot shut X appliance down for what ever reason

If a customer can't/won't shut down an appliance because it's inconvenient to lose power to it as a planned outage, can they afford to lose power to it as an unplanned outage as a result of you working live? By 'working live' I mean relying on your basic 1000v insulated tools to undo a terminal, pull a live wire out and screw it in somewhere else (still live), and not live testing (eg putting GS38 probes on a live terminal).

Saying that I seem to remember a thread a while ago where some H&S jobsworth had got wind of this idea of 'not working live' and forbidden any live testing, which I think would make the installation less safe.

 

[Adam W]

if we're not supposed to work live, then why pay the extra for insulated tools?

There was some old spark I worked with who used to say standard insulated tools should all be banned and we should use the kind of screwdrivers chippies use, to encourage you to pay more attention to what you're doing.
Uninsulated snips as well...

 

[telectrix]

There was some old spark I worked with who used to say standard insulated tools should all be banned and we should use the kind of screwdrivers chippies use, to encourage you to pay more attention to what you're doing.
Uninsulated snips as well...

these should be used only by plumbers as a means of testing for live.

 

[Geordie Spark]

these should be used only by plumbers as a means of testing for live.

Oi !! ........... aren't you forgetting I'm a plumber / gas bloke (as well as a spark) ?

 

[snowhead]

If testing a terminal with shrouded meter connections is Live working then so is putting a 13amp plug in a socket.

Pulling a fuse, unless it's pre 1970 ish, is not live working, the terminals are shrouded.

Live working leaves Live cables or bars exposed to the possibility of direct contact.

 

[brookster]

If a customer can't/won't shut down an appliance because it's inconvenient to lose power to it as a planned outage, can they afford to lose power to it as an unplanned outage as a result of you working live? By 'working live' I mean relying on your basic 1000v insulated tools to undo a terminal, pull a live wire out and screw it in somewhere else (still live), and not live testing (eg putting GS38 probes on a live terminal).

Pretty much running the risk in that case I agree. It doesn't need to be that 'live' though you could be standing 3 feet away from an exposed live conductor and it should be classed as working live.

Saying that I seem to remember a thread a while ago where some H&S jobsworth had got wind of this idea of 'not working live' and forbidden any live testing, which I think would make the installation less safe.

Yep you need to work live in some instances..

I'm putting it down to a difference of interpretation.

I could agree with the following

2) Situations where working “live” is acceptable.
Due regard shall be taken of “The Electricity at Work Regulations”, particularly the following
regulations: *
Regulation 14; Work on or near live conductors.
Regulation 16; which covers the subject “Persons to be competent to prevent danger and
injury.


Live working may be undertaken only when adequate precautions are taken to prevent danger or injury to all persons, i.e.
a) Persons carrying out work on live equipment shall be competent to do so safely.
b) Live exposed parts shall not be left unattended at any time.
d) Live work will only be carried out where there exists no risk of water ingress to live exposed parts.
e) Live work may only be carried out where it is impracticable to isolate the supply.
f) Signs shall be fitted in all cases on circuits under test stating “Warning, circuit under
test “Do Not Operate”.


The above would seem to state that testing does fall under the working live regulations.

 

[brookster]

So I I've read the APs rule book and guess what regs ect ect 3 allow live work under the regs I supplied him - make him look like a --- or not?

Inspecting, Fault Finding and Testing or Live Electrical Equipment


On systems and installations, including battery installations, where the supply is at low voltage testing on or near uninsulated live conductors is to be avoided, except where a formal assessment procedure for deciding whether to work live is undertaken and recorded by the Authorised Person, and reviewed and authorised by the Authorising Engineer and;
it is unreasonable in all circumstances for the conductors to be dead, and
it is reasonable in all circumstances for the persons to be at work on or near the conductor while it is live, and
the Authorised Person has given approval for such live working by the issue of a Standing Instruction, and
all live parts are adequately protected to prevent direct contact, and
suitable precautions (including. where necessary. The provision of suitable protective equipment) are taken to prevent injury, and
test equipment and all tools in use shall be suitable for the intended use. shall be properly maintained. and properly used, and
adequate precautions are taken to prevent damage to equipment and accidental contact with live conductors, and
the Person in Charge has an Accompanying Safety Person in attendance. The Accompanying Safety Person is to have the duties, as described in Clause 1.14 of this Rule Book explained before the commencement of the work

What a shame an AP cannot even read his own rule book before trying to make people look like fools.

 

[Engineer54]

Were all giving opinions to a situation we are completely in the dark about.

So can you give us the low down about the situation you are working in, and what area's of work you are currently in dispute with this AP, which i'm taking stands for ''Approved Person''?? So i'm also taking it that you work is revolving around MV/LV sub-station work, Yes??

 

[brookster]

Were all giving opinions to a situation we are completely in the dark about.

So can you give us the low down about the situation you are working in, and what area's of work you are currently in dispute with this AP, which i'm taking stands for ''Approved Person''?? So i'm also taking it that you work is revolving around MV/LV sub-station work, Yes??

It was a bog standard CP test, (skilled person). The work will be in a hazardous environment but the paperwork did not define this.
AP said I failed because of this question which I agree with if it is a hazardous area, but his comment about never doing live work in any area (they are world based) of this very large company is absurd giving the fact that the AP himself is supposed to sanction the permits and safety procedures to do so.
Not in the HV game anymore(how I miss HV ) it's oil area (LV). I don't have a problem with this in an hazardous area i was just his after dig which I found wrong and lol.
If he is pulling me up on regs he really should have read his own yes?

I'm not in dispute he is going to give me the test again but I might add 'in non hazardous area under regs ect ect you can carry out live work.'

Maybe he thinks live work is playing about with live cables which it clearly isnt and as an AP he should know this.

I didn't have the regs book at hand for the test which you are supposed to have access to and I still got the same answer after reading the ect rule book.(what --- use)

Thing is I clearly cant be to much of a --- about it as he grants me my card - but he was wrong.

The test I will add was a HV permit type deal nothing regarding petrochem at all.
Even had divining rods question ect and other HV type deal questions.

 

[Engineer54]

OK, at least now we can relate as to what you have been talking about. I only have the barest experience of the petrochem industry, so can't give any definitive answers. As far as Hazardous area's/zones go, i'm far more familiar with the American codes of practice, than the European Ex regulations. I am and have been a sub-station AP for many years though.... lol!!

 

[brookster]

When he said to me, you will never do live work under x my reply was 'so you don't do testing then' I could hear him croak over the phone

I might have added 'so how do you set up the pressure testing of a VCB'

He is HV and petrochem leccy AP

 

[Knobhead]

After reading this I've lost the will to live

 

[Gage]

After reading this I've lost the will to live

Rest in peace. I will join.