Local isolation

[067256]

Hello,
I am looking for clarification on a big kitchen refit that I am quoting for. Lots of built in appliances and the very fussy customer is against local isolation above work tops, in cupboards etc...
On the other side of the kitchen wall is the garage. Can I place all isolation switches in there or could this be an 'accessibility' issue?
Thank-you

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Why do you think local isolation is required?
It's a domestic kitchen, I assume, not a factory with dangerous machinery.

 

[067256]

They are integrated appliances so would like to install some kind of isolation for safety and maintenance purposes. Don't like the idea of just relying on an rcd to provide this

 

[Deleted member 26818]

RCD and MCB, or RCBO surely?
Well, there's no requirement for local isolation of domestic kitchen appliances.
It's possible to install a grid with switches for each appliance, some where in the kitchen, or even just outside if you prefer.
Just have to be careful not to overload the ring.

 

[067256]

Yep she's against a grid switch too! Even a nice shiny one!!
garage it is then. New DB with radials to appliances.
cheers

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Can you place the grid switch in a cupboard?

 

[cdavies33]

Grid switch all the way. I have a 12 gang in my kitchen.

Make sure it's in the kitchen also, had the washing machine on once and it went onto a fast spin... Literally white smoke started flying out of it. Ran like hell for the grid switch

 

[ipf]

One problem with no local isolation (or access, at least)....if a fault occurs on an appliance....you lose all on the circuit. Tell them that.

 

[067256]

This will be my next port of call in the morning. Although the customer is Scottish so probably won't be in the best of moods tomorrow. Lol.

 

[Engineer54]

I assume you mean local control switching of built in/under appliances and the like. If the customer doesn't want them don't provide them. Some customers are just bloody stupid and far more interested in the kitchens aesthetics than commonsense convenience of an actual workplace.

As for installing the control switches in the garage,or outside of the kitchen, that's just as bloody daft, if they are not conveniently located then pointless providing them at all....

 

[cdavies33]

Yep she's against a grid switch too! Even a nice shiny one!!
garage it is then. New DB with radials to appliances.
cheers

Against a grid switch?? Fussy women! Ha

 

[ipf]

This will be my next port of call in the morning. Although the customer is Scottish so probably won't be in the best of moods tomorrow. Lol.

He'd be in a worse mood with a useless kitchen than with a useless football team :icon12:

 

[Octopus]

One problem with no local isolation (or access, at least)....if a fault occurs on an appliance....you lose all on the circuit. Tell them that.

Precisely.

RCD board and no local isolation is asking for trouble, sooner or later.... especially in a kitchen!

 

[Engineer54]

These pratts listen far too much to these arty farty television interior designers, like the two queenies, rather than using their own commonsense or any practical advice.... Only to live to regret it at a later date when it's all too late!!

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Simple question:
For what reason do you believe local isolation would be required?
"Asking for trouble", "live to regret", sounds serious.

 

[Engineer54]

Simple question:
For what reason do you believe local isolation would be required?
"Asking for trouble", "live to regret", sounds serious.

If you are referring to my comment (post 14) then i was referring to these so called minimalist kitchens that these arty farty type TV interior design presenters advocate where they don't want to see anything above the worktop, eg, sockets switches or anything else. The fact that a kitchen is a workplace is of no concern to them, it only has to look nice (well to their mind anyway)

Most of these customers that follow these daft programmes end up with a kitchen that doesn't/can't function as a family kitchen, hence the ''live to regret'' comment!!

Following on, in some cases these daft ideas can be bloody dangerous with appliance leads exiting cabinet doors up on to the work top, just waiting for someone to accidentally/inadvertently catch the lead and pull a hot kettle or some other appliance containing hot liquids off the worktop. Now that sounds pretty serious to me!! lol!!

 

[driverman]

I went and had a nose round a new build house other day. Very nice kitchen installed with all sing all dancing appliances etc. Many tall appliances side by side and elec hob , oven. All the "local" isolation switches were surface mounted at the back of a tall broom cupboard (narrow top part). Looked unusual for so many switches to be sited there. Anyway, not easy to get to in a hurry, steps required and no doubt clear cupboard out first.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

It seems to be that some of you are suggesting that there is a requirement for emergency switching?
If that is the case, then surely the requirements for emergency switching would have to be satisfied?
Switches would have to red, they would have to clearly identify whichever appliance they control, they would have to be placed in such a position that they can be operated safely.
There is also a requirement that the appliance should not be re-energised when the emergency switch is released.
How many of you have seen such emergency switching in domestic kitchens?

 

[driverman]

It seems to be that some of you are suggesting that there is a requirement for emergency switching?
If that is the case, then surely the requirements for emergency switching would have to be satisfied?
Switches would have to red, they would have to clearly identify whichever appliance they control, they would have to be placed in such a position that they can be operated safely.
There is also a requirement that the appliance should not be re-energised when the emergency switch is released.
How many of you have seen such emergency switching in domestic kitchens?

Possibly I'm old school, brought up that every appliance had to have a local isolation switch usually within 2m. It would appear that this rule disappeared a bit back. However I still think IF anything should go wrong ,the appliance could be easily switched off locally.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

It does seem to be that there is a quite commen belief that emergency switching is required in domestic kitchens, especially for under counter appliances.
What I don't understand, is that I have never seen it installed.
I have seen functional switching, and invariably it includes additional fusing, which to my understanding if anything actually contravenes the Regulations.

There was a requirement in the 15th edition, that related to a single switch being used to control two cookers neither of which were allowed to be more than 2m away from the switch.

 

[ian.settle1]

Hello,
I am looking for clarification on a big kitchen refit that I am quoting for. Lots of built in appliances and the very fussy customer is against local isolation above work tops, in cupboards etc...
On the other side of the kitchen wall is the garage. Can I place all isolation switches in there or could this be an 'accessibility' issue?
Thank-you

If it is on the other side of the wall in the garage how would it be classed as local?

 

[D Skelton]

It does seem to be that there is a quite commen belief that emergency switching is required in domestic kitchens, especially for under counter appliances.
What I don't understand, is that I have never seen it installed.
I have seen functional switching, and invariably it includes additional fusing, which to my understanding if anything actually contravenes the Regulations.

There was a requirement in the 15th edition, that related to a single switch being used to control two cookers neither of which were allowed to be more than 2m away from the switch.

There is a requirement for fixed electric motors to have a means of switching off that is readily accessible and so placed as to prevent danger. A fitted kitchen appliance containing a motor would fall under this remit.

That said, this could be satisfied if such fixed appliances had integrated on/off switches.

 

[D Skelton]

My method if I'm wiring a kitchen;

All fixed appliances are hard wired in to a flex outlet, which in turn is fed from a fused switch, whether that be a SFCU above the worktop, or a grid.

 

[trev]

Yep she's against a grid switch too!

Against a grid switch, over the kitchen sink or the dining table. Either way it's a result

 

[Engineer54]

There is a requirement for fixed electric motors to have a means of switching off that is readily accessible and so placed as to prevent danger. A fitted kitchen appliance containing a motor would fall under this remit.

That said, this could be satisfied if such fixed appliances had integrated on/off switches.

A means of local isolation does not include an integrated switch, it refers to a means of isolating the appliance/equipment from it's source of supply.

Such switches should be easily accessible, preferably locally adjacent, or at the very least, in line of sight of the equipment it is isolating. Certainly not located in another room or unrelated area...

 

[D Skelton]

A means of local isolation does not include an integrated switch, it refers to a means of isolating the appliance/equipment from it's source of supply.

Such switches should be easily accessible, preferably locally adjacent, or at the very least, in line of sight of the equipment it is isolating. Certainly not located in another room or unrelated area...

I didn't mention local isolation did I though? I was talking about a readily accessible means of switching off, which is required by BS 7671 for fixed electric motors, whereas 'local isolation' isn't.

 

[Engineer54]

I didn't mention local isolation did I though? I was talking about a readily accessible means of switching off, which is required by BS 7671 for fixed electric motors, whereas 'local isolation' isn't.

But the thread IS talking about a means of local isolation/functional isolation!! And as you described the means of achieving this in a domestic kitchen environment, is the correct way of going about it...

A on/off switch on the appliance, whether it incorporates a motor or not, does not fulfill that means....

 

[Deleted member 26818]

There is no requirement to provide isolation for fixed electric motors, in BS7671.
There are requirements that such isolation must satisfy if it is provided.

BS7671 only requires local isolation in certain circumstance, for instance High voltage discharge lighting and where emergency switching is required.
Unless your kitchen contains High Voltage discharge lighting, or you require emergency switching, isolation can be just about anywhere.
Again if emergency switching is required, a whole raft of other requirements have to be met which I have never come across in a domestic kitchen.

I really think that if people are going to argue in favour of local isolation, they should be able to quote a Regulation, rather than just make it up as they go along.

To my knowledge, the only requirements in BS7671 for local isolation, relate to High Voltage discharge lighting.
Not really applicable for domestic kitchens.

 

[Engineer54]

There is no requirement to provide isolation for fixed electric motors, in BS7671.
There are requirements that such isolation must satisfy if it is provided.

BS7671 only requires local isolation in certain circumstance, for instance High voltage discharge lighting and where emergency switching is required.
Unless your kitchen contains High Voltage discharge lighting, or you require emergency switching, isolation can be just about anywhere.
Again if emergency switching is required, a whole raft of other requirements have to be met which I have never come across in a domestic kitchen.

I really think that if people are going to argue in favour of local isolation, they should be able to quote a Regulation, rather than just make it up as they go along.

To my knowledge, the only requirements in BS7671 for local isolation, relate to High Voltage discharge lighting.
Not really applicable for domestic kitchens.

You know exactly what this thread is about, so why go on and on about this and that isn't required according to BS7671. Call it whatever you like functional switching, control switching or whatever it doesn't really matter, it makes far more sense to have a means of local isolation/control for built in or under kitchen appliances than not.

If this daft customer doesn't want that sensible facility, then that's fine don't give her any, simples!!

 

[D Skelton]

But the thread IS talking about a means of local isolation/functional isolation!! And as you described the means of achieving this in a domestic kitchen environment, is the correct way of going about it...

A on/off switch on the appliance, whether it incorporates a motor or not, does not fulfill that means....

It fulfils the minimum requirement set down by BS 7671, however the crux of that sentence quire right so would be the word 'minimum'.

 

[D Skelton]

There is no requirement to provide isolation for fixed electric motors, in BS7671

You're right, there isn't. There is however a requirement for readily accessible switching off. Most appliances come with on/off switches, but those that don't, if integrated and fixed, a switch or fused spur local to the appliance would be one way of satisfying this regulation.

Facts aside for a moment however. In my opinion, you'd be a moron not to fit some means of readily accessible switching off or isolation, in addition to any integral switching, particularly to fitted appliances. In a kitchen there is nothing worse in my eyes than a spark who's installed a socket on the wall behind the fitted washing machine for it to plug in to.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

To me, this thread is about getting people to think about what it is they install and why?

 

[wildgoose]

Page 61//Section 5.2.2:
IEE Electricians Guide To Building Regulations (17th edition) - Location of accessories in kitchens.

"Appliances built into kitchen furniture (integrated appliances), should be connected to a socket outlet or fused connection unit that is readily accessible when the appliance is in place and in normal use or supplied from a socket outlet or other connecting device controlled by a readily accessible double pole switch or fused connection unit".


This is a building regulation and is for safety purposes in the event of isolation for servicing of the appliance or for emergency switchoff. If a fire occurred at the back of the appliance and it could not be quickly switched off by a logically placed switch, then what would the insurance say? If a man came to fix the washing machine and has to disassemble the appliance, then he should be able to locally isolate without the need to power down the socket circuitry all day.

This regulation is in place for the customers safety. If a contractor chooses to ignore building regs because of the present house owners whim, then that contractor is taking a risk for which he is liable if any subsequent problems occur.

End of!!

 

[Deleted member 26818]

lol.
Isolation is provided at the CU.
It would be nice if there was an actual refrence to the specific Building Regulation which requires local isolation.
Rather than a quote from an out of date guide.

 

[Engineer54]

lol.
Isolation is provided at the CU.
It would be nice if there was an actual refrence to the specific Building Regulation which requires local isolation.
Rather than a quote from an out of date guide.

So tell us, what you provide for built in kitchen appliances on Your Domestic kitchen jobs/refurbs??

 

[Deleted member 26818]

I recently worked on a kitchen that had glass splashbacks.
No accessories above the work surface at all.
Socket-outlets pull up out of the work surface.
Every thing else hidden in cupboards under the work surface.

A friend of mine lives in a LA house.
They recently had the kitchen refurbished.
Everything is on one wall, including sink, gas cooker and two windows.
There's probably room for 4 double sockets.
Can't fit anything below the windows, no room, obviously have to miss the sink and cooker.
An SFCU has been provided for a washing machine, another for a tumble dryer, another for an extract fan, and of course there's a cooker switch.
This leaves enough room for two double sockets, one of which cannot now be removed as they managed to cover one end when they boxed in some pipes.

The CU is in an old larder cupboard on the other side of the room from the work top.

 

[Engineer54]

They are both rather convenient examples for you to put forward!! ...lol!!

However we have a section of smoked glass splashback in our VIP/Senior staff accommodation block kitchens but they will have the wall accessory points cut out before installation. Personally i think glass splashbacks are a bad idea, they are going to be prone to accidental damage over the years...
As for the worktop pop-up extension sockets, ...another bad idea for a kitchen worktop installation.

So back to the main point, are you saying that you don't as rule supply either grid switch/20A switch/SFCU isolation above kitchen worktops??

 

[Deleted member 26818]

No, as a rule, I install whatever the client desires.
I have done both the SFCU above the work top, and the grid switch.

 

[Tidy Max]

I am currently doing a large extension which has fitted cabinets on one wall (including 2 ovens and fridge freezer) and a large island that has hot tap, waste disposal, pop up socket bank. I have opted for a grid switch fitted into one of the cabinets. All outlets are on unswitched sockets (apart from the extractor fan which is fused at the grid switch).

Oh an there is an induction hob in the island but that is fed through a 45A isolator also fitted next to the grid switch!

The ovens are on plug tops but i am wiring those into flex outlets each fed with its own 20A radial.

I always opt for some method of local isolation!

 

[shanky887614]

You're right, there isn't. There is however a requirement for readily accessible switching off. Most appliances come with on/off switches, but those that don't, if integrated and fixed, a switch or fused spur local to the appliance would be one way of satisfying this regulation.

Facts aside for a moment however. In my opinion, you'd be a moron not to fit some means of readily accessible switching off or isolation, in addition to any integral switching, particularly to fitted appliances. In a kitchen there is nothing worse in my eyes than a spark who's installed a socket on the wall behind the fitted washing machine for it to plug in to.

whats wrong with having a socket fed from an fcu/switch above?