Loop in at ceiling rose or switch?

[sivoodoo]

Which method would you think uses the least amont of cable, looping in at the ceiling rose or at the switch?

Regards

Si.

 

[JLD]

Sorry this made me laugh. Electrocution means death by elctrical energy so would they be able to say anything afterwards? Most electric shocks received by DIYers is because they don't know what they are doing, nothing to do with which wiring method is chosen.

I must admit I tendt to stick to the traditional 'loop-in' method at light fittings rather than taking neutrals to the switch. A question that I have always thought is how easy is it to extend the circuit at a later time?

 

[EasT]

Reminds me of a 60yr old uncle of mine. Before tea he pulled the fuse on lighting circuit to change a rose, climbed onto double bed, removed rose and left two wire dangling. Wife in kitchen 'I'm about to dish up and no light.' Uncle replaces fuse switches off at the switch and checks wires dead. Leaves job to have is tea. His wife leaves the table early to get changed as they are off out to 'the club' after tea.

Uncle climbs on the bed to finish the '5 minute' job before he gets changed. Zap!! his bald head touches the wires as he climbs on bed. His misses has 'turned the light on' out of habit to get changed.

He didn't make the club that night! but was OK - just a little shaken.

Quite a funny story to tell in his case.

 

[Rockingit]

Te-he.... like my old chief telling me the way to test if a light socket is live is to see if it makes your finger tingle.... (yes, he really did say that. Like most things he said, I ignored him.)

Agree on the thoughts of most of the thread, though; it all depends on the situation and what you need to achieve. And thinking about being kind to the next sparky behind you in twenty years time when something needs changing.

 

[Engineer54]

I'd be interested to see how you make your lights work without a neutral! When you feed a switch in twin and earth the neutral is needed there to supply the light. You use the Switch as a JB, same thing as a ceiling rose.

Cheers,

That's the point, unless i needed a neutral at the switch position, there wouldn't be one!! Read the post you quoted again, ...all will become clear!!!

 

[Engineer54]

Well mate if you were sad about the Reg advising that a box or enclosure now does not have to be fixed to the fabric of the building, you will be raging that the regs now want you to consider the provision of a neutral conductor at each switch position to facilitate the installation of electronic devices in lighting circuits.

So though it mentions electronic devices you may find that the wiring loop at the fittings could be a thing of the past

What electronic devices, and would you need a neutral at every switch in the installation?? I think not to be honest!! I don't have anything against having a neutral at the switch position, but ONLY when a neutral is needed. I would never and have never looped through switches as a matter of course. To-date, i have never seen any official body either showing wiring diagrams or describing switch looped lighting circuits or in any other way endorsing such a wiring scheme.

 

[VoltzElectrical]

What electronic devices, and would you need a neutral at every switch in the installation?? I think not to be honest!! I don't have anything against having a neutral at the switch position, but ONLY when a neutral is needed. I would never and have never looped through switches as a matter of course. To-date, i have never seen any official body either showing wiring diagrams or describing switch looped lighting circuits or in any other way endorsing such a wiring scheme.

I'll see if I can find the IET notes for the pre- AM2 with diagram. off to walk the dog now though.

Cheers.

 

[Thomas123]

What electronic devices, and would you need a neutral at every switch in the installation?? I think not to be honest!! I don't have anything against having a neutral at the switch position, but ONLY when a neutral is needed. I would never and have never looped through switches as a matter of course. To-date, i have never seen any official body either showing wiring diagrams or describing switch looped lighting circuits or in any other way endorsing such a wiring scheme.

doesnt a dali lighting system require the neutral at the switch/controller not 100%

 

[VoltzElectrical]

the Dali lighting i have installed required a cat 6 at the switch.

 

[VoltzElectrical]

sorry you'll have to tilt your poor heads but here is the image from the AM2 notes showing feed to the switch for two way and inter lighting in twin and earth.

Look I'm not here to start an argument, it's already been started! All I'm saying is, that in addition to the 'solysta' range from Hager, that it is no longer just a 'do- not' from the old school boys, but a legitimate variation to traditional methods with it's own merits and need to be considered when designing lighting systems. There is nothing in the regs that says you can't have neutral at a switch, you just can't ONLY switch the neutral. There really are no other reasons that it can't be there.

And yes, i did misread a post on here that I replied hastily to so apologies for that. Must learn to read more carefully (lol, note to self!).

Thanks all.

 

[Faithmaster]

Part P, eh? Welcome to the begining of the end of a once proud trade.

 

[VoltzElectrical]

Part P, eh? Welcome to the begining of the end of a once proud trade.

is that the best comment you can add? Step up to the plate new boy with something intelligent or....

 

[Engineer54]

View attachment 8133

sorry you'll have to tilt your poor heads but here is the image from the AM2 notes showing feed to the switch for two way and inter lighting in twin and earth.

Look I'm not here to start an argument, it's already been started! All I'm saying is, that in addition to the 'solysta' range from Hager, that it is no longer just a 'do- not' from the old school boys, but a legitimate variation to traditional methods with it's own merits and need to be considered when designing lighting systems. There is nothing in the regs that says you can't have neutral at a switch, you just can't ONLY switch the neutral. There really are no other reasons that it can't be there.

And yes, i did misread a post on here that I replied hastily to so apologies for that. Must learn to read more carefully (lol, note to self!).

Thanks all.

Were all guilty of doing that!! ..lol!!

Well i can't honestly see the point of that diagram, it's not showing a switch loop system, it just shows the going to the first switch!! Maybe for ease and clarity of the diagram? Not sure why they brought the sw/line running back thru the other switch boxes either!! lol!!
And this you say, is drawn up by the IET?? Dear God!!! lol!!!

 

[VoltzElectrical]

to be honest my sentiments were as your own when I saw it. But you don't argue when they're the ones taking the money off you to assess you do you? I only posted this in answer to the wider debate, most fueled recently by a heated thread (was it even closed?) about neutrals at switches. This is the score, I'm a young entry to the profession, educated to degree level (not in engineering) but interested in intelligent debate. I don't make the rules. I came into the game being shown the feed to the switch method and have seen it signed off time and again. Only in time gained with other sparks to come up against this resistance to the first practice I was shown. now, years later, I've seen all sorts of methods, and I've done the 17th. Having recently read threads on this contentious topic and sat my AM2, and reading the electricians monthly publications I thought I would add (the business') two-penneth worth in the hope that clever old boys would see past the old accepted ways and embrace the new ways based on sound reason.

Regards.

 

[Engineer54]

to be honest my sentiments were as your own when I saw it. But you don't argue when they're the ones taking the money off you to assess you do you? I only posted this in answer to the wider debate, most fueled recently by a heated thread (was it even closed?) about neutrals at switches. This is the score, I'm a young entry to the profession, educated to degree level (not in engineering) but interested in intelligent debate. I don't make the rules. I came into the game being shown the feed to the switch method and have seen it signed off time and again. Only in time gained with other sparks to come up against this resistance to the first practice I was shown. now, years later, I've seen all sorts of methods, and I've done the 17th. Having recently read threads on this contentious topic and sat my AM2, and reading the electricians monthly publications I thought I would add (the business') two-penneth worth in the hope that clever old boys would see past the old accepted ways and embrace the new ways based on sound reason.

Regards.

I'm not having a pop at you Voltz, as i have stated many times before, i have no problem taking a neutral to the switch, but if and only if there is a need for that neutral to be there. I have never seen any need for looping thru switches, i've seen plenty of instances where it has been, and those back boxes were always Full of unnecessary joints/connectors, especially when it wasn't just a straightforward 1 way/1gang switch.

So no thank you, you younger sparks can do whatever you want to do as far as looping thru switches, I for one will not, it has been and will continue to be a bad practice in my book.
As i said before i've never seen anything official endorsing this method, i've also never seen any publication of any merit showing or endorsing switch looping either. Best i think to agree to disagree on this one.... lol!!

 

[D Skelton]

Is there any such endorsement for the looping at light method?

Tin hat on