Loosing work because of 17th changes

TPES · Aug 16, 2009

Lately i have been asked by people to add garden/security lights, Fans, and socket outlets, as soon as you mention the cost of having to upgrade to RCD's and possibly having to upgrade bonding, the customer usually says "oh forget it then"

But im loosing more and more work because of this.. I cant help but think theres hundreds of people, even registered sparks that are going to do this work without complying to regs, unless theres something i dont know?
Its like the customer looks at me gone out as if to say "dont you want the work".. I wont back down and do work cheaper making additions or alterations to 3036 circuits and not complying to the regs... But am i being a fool?

zupos40 · Aug 16, 2009

magic-sid said:
Lately i have been asked by people to add garden/security lights, Fans, and socket outlets, as soon as you mention the cost of having to upgrade to RCD's and possibly having to upgrade bonding, the customer usually says "oh forget it then"

But im loosing more and more work because of this.. I cant help but think theres hundreds of people, even registered sparks that are going to do this work without complying to regs, unless theres something i dont know?
Its like the customer looks at me gone out as if to say "dont you want the work".. I wont back down and do work cheaper making additions or alterations to 3036 circuits and not complying to the regs... But am i being a fool?

No your not being a fool, the client is, a user on this site leaves the client with a copy of the ESC leaflet on why rcd are required, this may help you to educate them.

I found out something recently a good friend of mine had a fire due to a faulty boiler, nothing to do with electrical work and the insurance company would not pay out as he did not have PIR for electrical installation or any test certificates for new work, so if customer or electrician do work that not certified or if required part P, then both the client and electrician are for the high jump if it go wrong.

I stopped doing small installs for the present and only do testing etc, both domestic and commercial.

I have read that IEE are reviewing the use of RCD on lighting etc, may be they will review bonding as well.

Spudnik · Aug 16, 2009

zupos40 said:
...... had a fire due to a faulty boiler, nothing to do with electrical work and the insurance company would not pay out as he did not have PIR for electrical installation or any test certificates for new work

Id like to see that stand up in court.

zupos40 · Aug 16, 2009

Jason.S said:
Id like to see that stand up in court.

Jason I said the same to my friend, but he did not take it to court, he did not feel he could win.

Have a read of your house insurance small print, see if your insurer requires you to have your property tested 10 yearly.

xraytek · Aug 17, 2009

magic-sid said:
I wont back down and do work cheaper making additions or alterations to 3036 circuits and not complying to the regs...

Do 3036 fuses not comply with regs then?

I thought the regs just gave preference to alternative OPD

TPES · Aug 17, 2009

xraytek said:
Do 3036 fuses not comply with regs then?
I thought the regs just gave preference to alternative OPD

Yes they do, Just altering these circuits without meeting requirements of BS7671 08.

Had8Lives · Aug 18, 2009

There are quite a few situation's where an RCD spur can be used to fulfill the requirements for RCD protection. If for example a customer has a 3036 fuseboard and wants a outside socket, you could supply it through an RCD spur and just recommend on the cert that their fuseboard be upgraded.

TPES · Aug 18, 2009

Had8Lives said:
There are quite a few situation's where an RCD spur can be used to fulfill the requirements for RCD protection. If for example a customer has a 3036 fuseboard and wants a outside socket, you could supply it through an RCD spur and just recommend on the cert that their fuseboard be upgraded.

As wrote in past threads some sparks wont use RCD FCU's as they only make the addition comply, Which is not good enough, Once you alter a circuit you are then responsible for the whole circuit meaning the whole circuit will need RCD protection....

I've heard different oppinions

Des 56 · Aug 18, 2009

As I understand the guidance now doing the rounds
The addition only has to comply,but if that addition is fed by a cable that does not comply with the 50mm or mechanically protected bits,then the supply cable also needs protecting
So the Rcd spur would have to sit next to the supply point or meet the requirement for the above
I would always try and see if the whole of the installation could have a stand alone RCd and if not maybe just the extended circuit at the consumer unit

Mark2009 · Aug 18, 2009

magic-sid said:
Lately i have been asked by people to add garden/security lights, Fans, and socket outlets, as soon as you mention the cost of having to upgrade to RCD's and possibly having to upgrade bonding, the customer usually says "oh forget it then"

But im loosing more and more work because of this.. I cant help but think theres hundreds of people, even registered sparks that are going to do this work without complying to regs, unless theres something i dont know?
Its like the customer looks at me gone out as if to say "dont you want the work".. I wont back down and do work cheaper making additions or alterations to 3036 circuits and not complying to the regs... But am i being a fool?

Hi
You are right Cowboys will always win, try to find photos of old wiring that has caused a fire then paint a very bad picture to the client also take the OSG, electrical safety-dwelling part p and the regs with you. its worth a shot.

Thanks

Mark

zupos40 · Aug 19, 2009

Des 56 said:
As I understand the guidance now doing the rounds
The addition only has to comply,but if that addition is fed by a cable that does not comply with the 50mm or mechanically protected bits,then the supply cable also needs protecting
So the Rcd spur would have to sit next to the supply point or meet the requirement for the above
I would always try and see if the whole of the installation could have a stand alone RCd and if not maybe just the extended circuit at the consumer unit

Des originally Electrical safety council under 17th edition guidance

http://www.esc.org.uk/forum/index.html

Stated that only the new wiring and all new socket installed had to be RCD protected.

Until earlier this year when in IET wiring matters issue 30 spring 09 alterartion and addition Mr Mark Coles stated that to ensure compliance all socket on the ring you were adding to must be RCD protected, included link to wiring matters.

http://www.------.org/publishing/wiring-regulations/mag/

Which is different to ESC this is why you may be confused, we all are, personelly I would protect all the socket outlet whether ground floor or not as I understand the dangers shock risk of fault equipment class 1 earthed equipment pose, so not sure you can just RCD protected the new addition/ alteration.