Meters and boards Question

[Luke105]

I work for a company who installs electric heaters.

Usually we remove old storage heaters and replace them with our heaters using the same point with a new switched fcu.

The fuse board is usually just an old Wylex type with just an on off switch and non switched fuses.
The board is powered from the live coming out of the radio teleswitch meter so to make the board live 24 hours we remove this cable and put it into a Henley block which has permanent live feed.

The questions are....
Are we allowed to touch these meters as there are stickers all over them saying property of the electricity board.

Secondly, using the old points coming from the old style board with just an on off switch. Is this ok?

 

[Deleted member 26818]

From what I understand, you’re working for a company that is making a profit out of you working unsafely.
Your company should either arrange for the DNO to attend to pull the fuse, or get someone accredited to do it.

 

[ipf]

I’m just asking does the board need upgrading.
I’d highly doubt I’m accredited to do this main fuse pulling but reading threads on here it seems loads do it

Luke, as you seem to know, there are a few more problems than changing the CU to deal with, although interpretation of regulations may be involved in the actual answer you're after.
If no certification is involved who is the work being done for?
There seems plenty corner cutting going on, some of it dangerous.

 

[Deleted member 105166]

What’s wrong exactly? Aw that’s what I’d like to know

You are not authorised to pull the DNO’s fuse and from what you’ve said, you have come across vague with regards to other aspects covered by BS7671 that covers the overall installation, demand, diversity, testing, certification, etc. And you’re not proving dead.

 

[Luke105]

Luke, as you seem to know, there are a few more problems than changing the CU to deal with, although interpretation of regulations may be involved in the actual answer you're after.
If no certification is involved who is the work being done for?
There seems plenty corner cutting going on, some of it dangerous.

Well if I was working for myself in this situation then I’d rather just put an upto date 6way board in for example which actually has protection with circuit breakers instead of old rewirables.

I genuinely have no idea if we should be pulling fuses out for opening the meters to remove a tail.
I’m just doing what the company has asked me to do to carry out the job

 

[Deleted member 105166]

In fairness Luke, credit to you for coming on here and asking questions, as you clearly are not comfortable that what you’ve been told to do is correct.

 

[Luke105]

In fairness Luke, credit to you for coming on here and asking questions, as you clearly are not comfortable that what you’ve been told to do is correct.

That’s right, I’m very sceptical and I was hoping someone with experience could just tell me a right and wrong.

 

[Luke105]

In fairness Luke, credit to you for coming on here and asking questions, as you clearly are not comfortable that what you’ve been told to do is correct.

That’s right, I’m very sceptical and I was hoping someone with experience could just tell me a right and wrong.

 

[The Ghost]

I genuinely have no idea if we should be pulling fuses out for opening the meters to remove a tail.

Absolutely not! Especially with your level of knowledge you are playing with fire. Who supervises you?

 

[The Ghost]

As to the board change, not enough information. But generally speaking there is no imperative for it to be changed. Although it may be recommended to the client it is just not a yes or no answer.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

If I were working for a company, I would not be pulling DNO fuses.
Yes, I admit that I have pulled DNO fuses in the past and will probably pull them in the future.
The times I have pulled them have been for me, family or my own jobs.

 

[ipf]

Sorry Luke but you're being taken for a mug by cowboys. No way should this be going on. I'll ask again, who is the contract work being carried out for?

 

[Andy5678]

The company you work for should have some sort of procedure in place for getting the fuse removed.

Any work has to be done to bs7671 18th edition.

If you know these regs then you might be needing RCD protection, SPD, if altering or making additions to the circuit it should be up to current standards.

the correct certificate needs issued every time.

 

[littlespark]

Well, this is interesting reading.

Recently, I attended a house where this heater swap had been done. The company that came only changed the heaters. They told the homeowners to have their E7 tariff changed.
This was done, but the meter guys didn't reconnect the E7 board... leaving my customers without any heating. (said they weren't allowed to).

I was actually thinking of doing this myself as a business idea, but you guys are putting me right off!

Have the customer get an isolator installed from their supplier to make the changeover easier, swap the heaters, test the circuits and move the E7 board to 24hr.
Hence a recent thread I made about disposing of the bricks.

My heater choice would be the Rointe Kyros range, but would accept other suggestions.

Reading the Rointe website, it does say that any warranty would be void if the plugs were cut off... so i'd have to change the switches to sockets, and therefore changing the board to RCD protected if required.
I don't know, but i'd expect other manufacturers to say the same regarding plugs??

 

[Strima]

Sounds like your company is cutting a lot of corners, someone will get hurt sooner rather than later.

 

[MJPD29]

You definetly should not be disconnecting any cables from the meter if that is what you mean

 

[DPG]

Interesting thread!

 

[Shoei]

As a company employee this is an HSE issue, the HSE set out what employers must do to ensure safety in the workplace. Live working isn't forbidden but is tightly controlled, it doesn't sound like any kind of risk assessment or controls are in place.

You can read the HSE guidance here in the Electricity at work: Safe working practices (pdf download)

 

[Wilko]

Hi Luke - I think Minor Works Cert for changing the supply feed point and another for a new FCU, if I've understood correctly. As you are moving the tails, they would have to comply with current regs for sizing, insulation and support.
Clearly they should not be asking you to work live.

 

[littlespark]

I think we’ve scared Luke off with all this.

Maybe Luke is merely someone who fixes the new heaters to the wall and takes the old ones away. Perhaps the electrical work is done by someone else in his team who is qualified to do so. Perhaps the management above have agreements in place with the suppliers who come round afterwards and reseal fuses that the team have removed.
Optimistic tag alert!!!

Maybe Darth Vader is his father
“NOOOooooo!!!”

 

[Luke105]

I think we’ve scared Luke off with all this.

Maybe Luke is merely someone who fixes the new heaters to the wall and takes the old ones away. Perhaps the electrical work is done by someone else in his team who is qualified to do so. Perhaps the management above have agreements in place with the suppliers who come round afterwards and reseal fuses that the team have removed.
Optimistic tag alert!!!

Maybe Darth Vader is his father
“NOOOooooo!!!”

Just the boring dick measuring tradesman replies. Someone asks a simple question and because they don’t know every little rule on electrics that means they aren’t a “sparky” so it’s better to just ignore

 

[Midwest]

Oh dear. Another unsatisfied customer.

 

[littlespark]

OP, you asked a simple question, you got a simple answer;
The company you work for is cutting so many corners, they've made a circle.

If the work was only changing the heaters, isolating locally, then I don't think BS7671 applies as its not the "fixed wiring" that's being worked on.... but anything that involves disconnecting the supply/ pulling the main fuse (which even us boring tradesmen are not permitted to do) or working in the distribution boards would need a qualified spark, and certification afterwards.

Obviously you cannot name the company you work for on this very public forum, but you could tell us the make of the heaters you are fitting. They may not be as good as the advertising claims.

 

[Luke105]

Oh dear. Another unsatisfied customer.

Seen it all. Someone asks a question and y

OP, you asked a simple question, you got a simple answer;
The company you work for is cutting so many corners, they've made a circle.

If the work was only changing the heaters, isolating locally, then I don't think BS7671 applies as its not the "fixed wiring" that's being worked on.... but anything that involves disconnecting the supply/ pulling the main fuse (which even us boring tradesmen are not permitted to do) or working in the distribution boards would need a qualified spark, and certification afterwards.

Obviously you cannot name the company you work for on this very public forum, but you could tell us the make of the heaters you are fitting. They may not be as good as the advertising claims.

I am qualified. I just asked a question about permitted work on the meter as I was unsure as some companies can have agreements with firms.
The board question was linked to this and just to see about rcd.

Thanks

 

[Midwest]

I can see OP's point chaps. Its all a learning thing. Some of the members on here, appear to have gone from zero to hero in one step and nothing in between.

 

[ipf]

I can see OP's point chaps. Its all a learning thing. Some of the members on here, appear to have gone from zero to hero in one step and nothing in between.

I agree wholeheartedly, mate.
Ok, Luke may be a bit short of knowledge in some areas but at least he realizes something is going ---- up and feels that he wants to do something about it. He wants to learn.
There do seem to be a lot more 'know alls', these days.....jumping in presumptuously.

 

[Shoei]

I can see OP's point chaps. Its all a learning thing. Some of the members on here, appear to have gone from zero to hero in one step and nothing in between.

Fair point but it's workplace safety issue and not really about electrical practice. Luke's employer has a simple way to avoid live working - just ask the DNO to fit an isolator. Asking employees to work live without justification is a criminal offence. Credit to Luke for questioning the situation but it won't be resolved by friendly advice from a forum, these things are fine until they're not fine.

 

[Midwest]

Fair point but it's workplace safety issue and not really about electrical practice. Luke's employer has a simple way to avoid live working - just ask the DNO to fit an isolator. Asking employees to work live without justification is a criminal offence. Credit to Luke for questioning the situation but it won't be resolved by friendly advice from a forum, these things are fine until they're not fine.

'course your right, and I think he knows the answer to his question. But he just wants confirmation of his doubts, before he opens his gob. You know what its like, going in to the Lions den with your boss, telling him what he's doing is not safe & right.

 

[ipf]

They're shysters and criminals and want showing up as such.....but when someone needs a wage, what do they do? They're put in no mans land and that's where the problem becomes greater for them. I know it's worse being in a dangerous situation but what do you do....report it and lose your living wage?

 

[richy3333]

If it's the heaters I think they are, they're carp IMHO. Selling snake oil. I have a customer that has had the exact situation. Storage heaters removed SO fitted, new super duper storage heaters installed. As others have said he was left with no heating after a meter change.
If people want electric heating there's plenty of better choices at a fraction of the cost!

 

[Deleted member 26818]

I don’t think any of my responses have been out of order.
Might be useful if someone could point out which of them are.

 

[Luke105]

That’s correct. To perform the task safely we have to pull the main fuse. If we don’t pull the fuse out we have to put the economy board live tail into a live Henley block and hope we don’t touch it with our fingers!

 

[Toneyz]

That’s correct. To perform the task safely we have to pull the main fuse. If we don’t pull the fuse out we have to put the economy board live tail into a live Henley block and hope we don’t touch it with our fingers!

The problem this is not a one-off its become standard practice for the job that you are doing.

 

[sparksburnout]

Fair point but it's workplace safety issue and not really about electrical practice. Luke's employer has a simple way to avoid live working - just ask the DNO to fit an isolator. Asking employees to work live without justification is a criminal offence. Credit to Luke for questioning the situation but it won't be resolved by friendly advice from a forum, these things are fine until they're not fine.

I am a bit uneasy with this: "
Electrician suffered shock when electrical supply had not been properly isolated
Inadequate isolation
An electrician received a severe electric shock whilst carrying out building refurbishment and fitting out work in a new estates office. The electrical supply had not been properly isolated." If he is an electrician, how come he did not go through the safe isolation procedure? It should be embedded on the back of any decent sparks eyelids surely? I find it a bit odd it is on the HSE website.

 

[Midwest]

I don’t think any of my responses have been out of order.
Might be useful if someone could point out which of them are.

You don't agree with anyone; where do we start.

 

[Midwest]

Oh dear. Another unsatisfied customer.

I do fear some have miscued my double entendre; or have they?

 

[Luke105]

I am a bit uneasy with this: "
Electrician suffered shock when electrical supply had not been properly isolated
Inadequate isolation
An electrician received a severe electric shock whilst carrying out building refurbishment and fitting out work in a new estates office. The electrical supply had not been properly isolated." If he is an electrician, how come he did not go through the safe isolation procedure? It should be embedded on the back of any decent sparks eyelids surely? I find it a bit odd it is on the HSE website.

Maybe he needed to pay the bills

 

[sparksburnout]

Maybe he needed to pay the bills

Bit of a cavalier attitude?

 

[45140]

Luke, I suggest you speak to the local HSE Inspector confidentially and let him know what is going on.

From what you say there are some very basic but serious breaches of Legislation including the HASAW Act 1975, and the Electricity at Work Regulations. In addition it sounds like you are breaching the requirements of BS7671 as well, and into the bargain interfering with DNO equipment.

An alternative approach would be to speak to a safety officer at the DNO and arrange for him to carry out a "coincidental" visit whilst you guys are at a premises