Military Electrician

[jonnyhammond]

Hi Guys

Im just after some general info. Im an electrician in the Army but ill shortly making the transition to "civvie street"
Im after doing a few courses and wondered what would be the best direction to go in? Obviously the 2394/5 (new 2391 qualification) would be great but with a decent knowledge of my trade but little experience im hesitant about doing it. I already have my 17th edition and the 2369 Electrical installation work services equivilant to 2360 electrical installation work

Do you guys know if the "Domestic Installation Workshop 4141-01" qualification offered by 'trade skills 4 u' carries much weight on a CV??
(Domestic Installation Workshop C&G 4141-01)

Any other info (OR A JOB?!) would be greatly appreciated. Are there many military sparks that have successfully made the transition that you know of?

Im 26 and looking to settle in the London area.

Thanks!​

 

[shagbite]

short courses only provide false hope and empty pockets to people who want to better themselves. oh, and fat wallets for the scheisters who peddle these cons. i'd like to know if the fella from tradeskills would let one of his 5 day "graduates" rewire his nan's house.

 

[plugsandsparks]

FWIW, I used TS4U for 17th and Part P a few years ago, did 2391 locally at BG. What i can say is that TS4U were very good.

What shocked me when i came back into the industry and updated the qualies was the amazingly low pass level for the ridiculously easy tests. This is a C&G issue, they need to at least add 20% onto the required pass level, after all we are supposed to be dealing with a potentially dangerous service.

 

[shagbite]

city and guilds are up to their neck in it as well. they're as much to blame as anyone. they need a complete overhaul - starting with the withdrawal of multiple choice exams.

 

[Knobhead]

C&G have their noses in the trough along with the rest. They should be ashamed of what they have done to this trade!

My first C&G certificates were issued by the Union of Lancashire and Cheshire Institutes.
Multiple choice? Open book? Forget it!
If you didn’t know the subject you had no chance!

My EITB certificates mean far more to me. You had to prove yourself.
OK the company bent over backwards to help. You need something for you’re log book?
Pack you’re bags, you’re going to a different division of the company.
The scary bit was the one to one interview with the examiner, I’ll admit I was bricking myself before it and during it.

 

[Tradeskills4u]

Look guys I understand your frustrations but there isn't a massive conspiracy to de-skill the industry and as far as I can tell standards are on the increase because training providers, City & Guilds, EAL, the IET, The ESC and the scheme providers are all working to ensure people are competent. Competence is a mix of training and experience. However people have to start somewhere especially if they can't get a job so they more often than not choose training and education. Every industry needs an entry point and I for one think domestic installer is a pretty good place to start.

You are going to have to accept that the Domestic Installer is here to stay. You can not expect people to do a 5 year apprenticeship if all they will be doing is domestic work. It simply isn't necessary and it would be a huge waste of everyone's time.

The reality is that before Part P and Domestic Installer schemes what we had was a load of untrained cowboys. As frustrating as it must be for those who have trained for 5 years yes you can train with us in the basics of domestic installation within an 18 day period and our courses will ensure you are safe to go out there an install.

If we raise this bar too high and insist on a 5 year apprenticeship for domestic installation people will simply run underneath it and we end up back at square one.

I know I wont win you guys over as your minds are already made up but some of your comments seem a bit extreme to say the least and it is clear that anyone involved in helping people enter the industry is in the firing line.

 

[Plonker 3]

It's not about winning us over, it's proving what you are doing is correct.

how can you think someone who 18 days ago with no experience what so ever then be capable after spending a few days in a purpose built cubicle be competent to go out and rewire a house?

Or do you simply tell them on the way put that should they struggle the Internet and this forum are good places for obtaining advice?

 

[HappyHippyDad]

Look guys I understand your frustrations but there isn't a massive conspiracy to de-skill the industry and as far as I can tell standards are on the increase because training providers, City & Guilds, EAL, the IET, The ESC and the scheme providers are all working to ensure people are competent. Competence is a mix of training and experience. However people have to start somewhere especially if they can't get a job so they more often than not choose training and education. Every industry needs an entry point and I for one think domestic installer is a pretty good place to start.

You are going to have to accept that the Domestic Installer is here to stay. You can not expect people to do a 5 year apprenticeship if all they will be doing is domestic work. It simply isn't necessary and it would be a huge waste of everyone's time.

The reality is that before Part P and Domestic Installer schemes what we had was a load of untrained cowboys. As frustrating as it must be for those who have trained for 5 years yes you can train with us in the basics of domestic installation within an 18 day period and our courses will ensure you are safe to go out there an install.

If we raise this bar too high and insist on a 5 year apprenticeship for domestic installation people will simply run underneath it and we end up back at square one.

I know I wont win you guys over as your minds are already made up but some of your comments seem a bit extreme to say the least and it is clear that anyone involved in helping people enter the industry is in the firing line.

I think he's got quite a good point with the highlighted bit. However I dont think anyones right!!! :smartass2: All the views do seem a bit extreme (including yours Trade4skills).

I do think an apprenticeship for 5 years is far too much if all you want to do is domestic.. however 18 days is definitely not enough, nowhere near enough, especially if you have no electrical experience before hand. I had no prior knowledge before my 6 month domestic installers course (one evening a week) and afterwards I would not have been competent to re-wire a house, even though the tutors were brilliant. I'm a pretty intelligent guy (didn't like saying that, but its to emphasis the point) but after a year since finishing the course I am only just approaching the ability to re-wire a house and thats after spending lots of time with trained electricians.

I think the Domestic Installers course has potential but it should not be 18 days, it should be perhaps 6 months full time (also say a year part time as it attracts many people who want to keep working but try something different) which includes time spent with qualified electricians working in actual houses.

 

[Engineer54]

Look guys I understand your frustrations but there isn't a massive conspiracy to de-skill the industry and as far as I can tell standards are on the increase because training providers, City & Guilds, EAL, the IET, The ESC and the scheme providers are all working to ensure people are competent.

Now you really are taking the Pee!! Please give us a clue as to where you can see electrical standards that are improving?? Scheme providers are the very LAST people to quote, as to ensuring competence in the industry, they like the training centres, ground feed on the lowest possible denominators. C&G Institute are consistently lowering the industry level standards of qualifications and have been for a good few years now. ...FACT the IET and other institutions, such as CIBSE have had to higher the entry levels because industry standards have decreased since 1996 (or was it 99), that includes ONC/OND, HNC/HND and even Degree level qualifications!! So pull the other leg it's got bells on...


Competence is a mix of training and experience. However people have to start somewhere especially if they can't get a job so they more often than not choose training and education. Every industry needs an entry point and I for one think domestic installer is a pretty good place to start.

Of course YOU do!! Explain to me exactly how 18/20 days of training at one of your centres equates to a guy that was stacking shelves at Tesco's can leave your training establishment and be competent to enter unsuspecting peoples homes to undertake electrical work?? Explain where, or on what work experience he is going to base any work he does on??

A starting place, ...OK i'll go along with that for a moment, but should that starting place allow anyone to go into peoples homes under the FALSE pretence of being an electrician, be classed as a starting place, ...No i don't think so!! Your sending these guy's out into the Real world with what is an open book ''add-on'' qualification (17th ed) that is BTW based around the applicant having a core qualification. It is NOT and never has been, a qualification that competency as an electrician is to be based on!! Where is this working experience going to come from then??

You are going to have to accept that the Domestic Installer is here to stay. You can not expect people to do a 5 year apprenticeship if all they will be doing is domestic work. It simply isn't necessary and it would be a huge waste of everyone's time.

Wrong, we do not have to accept anything of the kind, that's just you're wishful or maybe smug thinking!!... Now, still accepting the need for a starting place (your words), 18/20 days of training, no matter how those days are spread out, is totally unrealistic no matter which or what way you look at it. Please don't assume that we don't know what is and what isn't required to work on ANY electrical installation domestic or otherwise, we DO!! We also see the far too numerous fundamental questions asked on this forum by your so called competent graduates. Obviously your competent rating of these guy's (and gal's) isn't working too well....

The reality is that before Part P and Domestic Installer schemes what we had was a load of untrained cowboys. As frustrating as it must be for those who have trained for 5 years yes you can train with us in the basics of domestic installation within an 18 day period and our courses will ensure you are safe to go out there an install.

Total rubbish, we are seeing far more cowboy installations and repairs since Part P, than we ever did before!! Dave down the pub has always been around, and still is, Part P has done nothing to stop Dave!! But now we also have the untrained, inexperienced fools that actually think (because of you and other training providers) that they are fully trained electricians.... Yours and others 18 day training course periods, will ensure one thing only, that you're graduates are anything BUT safe to go out there and install!! And you can take that to any bank of you're choice!! Fool yourself by all means, but don't try and fool the experienced and fully qualified electricians, you're on a hiding to nothing.


If we raise this bar too high and insist on a 5 year apprenticeship for domestic installation people will simply run underneath it and we end up back at square one.

No-ones insisting on 5 year apprenticeships, there are other ways to become a qualified electrician, but it will take considerably more time and a lot more effort than one of your ridiculous 18 days training courses and WILL require obtaining a ''Core'' electrical qualification. Square one sounds a much better proposition than what you're trying to sell us right now!!

I know I won't win you guys over as your minds are already made up but some of your comments seem a bit extreme to say the least and it is clear that anyone involved in helping people enter the industry is in the firing line.

Are you really naive enough to think that you ever had even a remote chance of winning over the real qualified electricians of this profession, with an 18 day training course that allows any Tom Dick or Harry with a pocket full of cash come in and flood the profession with wanna be electricians??
When i entered this profession, i and every other apprentice applicant, had to undertake an entrance exam, to establish ability and that we were capable of successfully completing the technical side of our training. What is yours and other training centre's entrance requirements, ....as far as i can see, it's only the ability to pay the course fee!! Ability, IQ, etc are just another hindrance you can do without!!

I am only scraping the bottom of the barrel as to why training centres are held in such contempt by the real experienced fully qualified electricians out there. You are seen and rightly so, as one of the major causes of the decline and de-skilling of this once proud electrical industry. You and the Part P Scam providers have systematically in the pursuit of profit reduced the title of electrician, to that of just another tradesman....

The sooner a National Register of Qualified Electricians is established and we can see an end to the present Part P providers and training centres no longer being able to roll out incompetent 18/20 day wannabes the better it will be all round, especially for the British Public, that's presently being sold one enormous PUP and being treated like the proverbial mushroom!!

 

[Guest55]

i didnt even need to read eng54's thread above before hitting the like button , i could sense it was a 1st class rant just from the use of red text.

quality lol.

 

[telectrix]

well, i've read eng54's post and having done so, entirely agree.

 

[Dcf]

Spot on rant from 54!
i feel his seethe
so the domestic installer is here to stay is it?
cos 5 years is a bit extreme for just domestic is it?
difference was any tradesman over 40 was usually involved in all aspects of their trade not just a bit of it.
this "teaching" a bit of a trade and thinking that's it is gonna have a negative effect in a few years.
What I mean by that is the newly "trained" with a few years under their belt will be tackling bigger jobs than their "experience" is capable off.
result being a death or two by sheer incompetence.
if you have nobody to show you the right way how to do something in the first place what chance do you have of getting it right?
i have just had a look through the ecn that came through the door and there is a wee article on a 52 year old woman retraining as a spark.....I'll get my coat

 

[Knobhead]

The sooner a National Register of Qualified Electricians is established and we can see an end to the present Part P providers and training centres no longer being able to roll out incompetent 18/20 day wannabes the better it will be all round, especially for the British Public, that's presently being sold one enormous PUP and being treated like the proverbial mushroom!! [/COLOR]

[/COLOR]

I can only agree,

You all know my views about registration. It’s the only way to rescue you’re trade.
I’m glad I’ve retired, it’s like sitting on a life raft watching SS British Electrical sinking.

I know this is callous, but the sooner another PM’s kid gets electrocuted the better. We may get back to real standards of training.

 

[gnuuser]

@tony I agree as well
short training courses does not make a person competent
extensive training under a fully qualified master and consistently following his direction, coupled with a sufficient apprenticeship time frame. is the only way to gain the competence level to perform the job safely.

there is no course that can prepare you for the varied things you see in the field.
short courses tend to focus on a specific set of circumstances (not at all what one may find in the real world)

being able to determine a wiring scheme at a glance comes at the price of years of training.
knowing what scheme you are working with helps to prevent you from making mistakes that could be deadly

 

[Engineer54]

Spot on rant from 54!
i feel his seethe
so the domestic installer is here to stay is it?
cos 5 years is a bit extreme for just domestic is it?
difference was any tradesman over 40 was usually involved in all aspects of their trade not just a bit of it.
this "teaching" a bit of a trade and thinking that's it is gonna have a negative effect in a few years.
What I mean by that is the newly "trained" with a few years under their belt will be tackling bigger jobs than their "experience" is capable off.
result being a death or two by sheer incompetence.
if you have nobody to show you the right way how to do something in the first place what chance do you have of getting it right?
i have just had a look through the ecn that came through the door and there is a wee article on a 52 year old woman retraining as a spark.....I'll get my coat

That's exactly what these training centres and the Part Pee providers are effectively doing to the British electrical industry ''De-Skilling''!! The negative effect is already biting, we aren't producing any real electricians in any numbers these days. Even the colleges seemed to have geared the core qualification courses around domestic installations these days, with 3 phase workings, motor control, etc,etc, etc, training, almost taking a back seat and verging on being classed as specialist!! lol!!

The UK will if this present situation is allowed to continue, will in the not too distant future be importing contract electricians from the rest of Europe, to fill an ever widening gap, left by not having anywhere near the higher standards of training, that is needed to keep our industries running, let alone not being able to build those industrial premises/factories in the first place....

 

[Rampantchilli]

I completely agree eng54, and it dawned on me while reading your post that most industries get tougher and more regulated with time, yet ours hasn't, whilst part p was honourable its failed as it isn't and never has been policed, on top of Electrical Trainee being allowed to work unsupervised so long as they have thier watered down quals.

id like to make a point about apprenticeships too, I served 5 years, hard work and poor pay to get where I am now. But the very first job I did where I was responsible, I was bricking it, I "knew what to do" but still, and it was only storage heating in a domestic setting, which I'd done thousands of times. My apprenticeship covered every aspect of electricity, including jointing, overheads, street lighting, 11kv, substations, burglar alarms, data and telecoms, so when I hear that an apprenticeship isn't necessary for domestic it boils my pish, I applied for my apprenticeship along with 8000 others, true, and after interviews and aptitude test they selected just 41 people.

Ts4U, I'm a fully qualified spark but my industry is being watered down, can I upgrade?
lol