New requirement for part p schemes

[p11jor]

Anyone heard about this new requirement that you need a level 3 qual to join a part p scheme from July 2011?

Surely this would wipe out alot of current members and new applicants?.......meaning more and more houses are not going to be signed off under part p, as I doubt many sparks are going to down tools for a couple of years and get a evening job stacking shelves whilst they try to gain a qualification that says the can do what they have been doing for the past 10/20/30/40/50 years!

Anyone else have any info on this?

 

[Ponty Massive]

The real issue is the 2391 cert. How can you be able to sign work off if you are not 2391. Testing is the safety of all electrical work. This is what needs to be looked at not installation competency I.e NVQ3

I do not have me 2391. I complete my 5 year apprenticeship in 1995. Over the past 16 years I have been involved in a lot of industrial and commercial projects ranging into £100k's. I was a contracts manager and QS for a large NIC contractor with about 20 JIB sparks under me. Because I have not done my 2391, would you say I am not able to be a DI.

You say testing is the safety of all electrical work. I reckon your miles off, design and installation is the safety of electrical work. Plugging a MFT into a circuit and writing down the numbers isn't going to tell you if the installation has been done correctly.

I agree there should be some industry minimum, but don't say because I do not have my 2391 I shouldn't be able to sign work off!!

 

[IQ Electrical]

I do not have me 2391. I complete my 5 year apprenticeship in 1995. Over the past 16 years I have been involved in a lot of industrial and commercial projects ranging into £100k's. I was a contracts manager and QS for a large NIC contractor with about 20 JIB sparks under me. Because I have not done my 2391, would you say I am not able to be a DI.

You say testing is the safety of all electrical work. I reckon your miles off, design and installation is the safety of electrical work. Plugging a MFT into a circuit and writing down the numbers isn't going to tell you if the installation has been done correctly.

I agree there should be some industry minimum, but don't say because I do not have my 2391 I shouldn't be able to sign work off!!

I take your point regarding design and installation but what is the final backstop before an installation is put into service?

Inspection and testing.

Don't forget the inspection bit, it's not just about 'plugging in an MFT', initial verification is intended to confirm that the installation complies with the design and has been designed and constructed in accordance with BS7671:2008.

You can have the best design in the world but if the installer can't interpret it and the inspector isn't competent, where does that leave your design?

I still believe 2391-10 should be a minimum for a QS for these reasons.

 

[Ponty Massive]

I take your point regarding design and installation but what is the final backstop before an installation is put into service?

Inspection and testing.

Don't forget the inspection bit, it's not just about 'plugging in an MFT', initial verification is intended to confirm that the installation complies with the design and has been designed and constructed in accordance with BS7671:2008.

You can have the best design in the world but if the installer can't interpret it and the inspector isn't competent, where does that leave your design?

I still believe 2391-10 should be a minimum for a QS for these reasons.

I don't disagree with anything you have said here. Design, installation, inspection and testing all plays an equally vital role. It just winds me up a little when someone say's "How can I be competant to sign off work" if I do not have my 2391.

 

[Electricalserv]

Well it's the same as the JIB saying to lots of lads you aren't a electrician until you have nvq3. It works both ways. Until you have the 2391-10 you ain't a competent full scope spark in napits eyes

 

[Des 56]

The most criminal attitude is the Niceic Qualifying supervisor system being adopted for domestic installation, where any muppet can install as long as the entity is registered
It can be justified in large installations but not domestic

Individual competence is the key
The 2391 is an excellent objective for all to attain, but for initial verification of an installation that has been installed by a qualifed spark,no, I dont believe it should be a requirement

Pirs are another issue where the 2391 is I believe very desirable,or at least should be
Its the QS system that needs addressing not the competence of qualified trained sparks
Your training should prepare you sufficiently to test and inspect your own work

 

[Ponty Massive]

Well it's the same as the JIB saying to lots of lads you aren't a electrician until you have nvq3. It works both ways. Until you have the 2391-10 you ain't a competent full scope spark in napits eyes

Well I guess I'll have to remain un-competent for the time being then!

In a different vein, competency and currency IMO also plays a vital role. Many years ago I did a EITB apprenticeship and did 4 years doing ONC & HNC in electrical engineering. Although I still have the bits of paper (in the loft somewhere), I have very vague memories of micro electronics, motor harmonics, binary logic, octal and hexdecimal, quadraphic formulas etc etc but none of these will help me change a CU. I left the industry for almost 8 years and when I decided to return everything had changed, even the colours of the cables.

Installation competency does play a big role and years of experience helps. Regulations change a lot hense the reason I ask a lot of people for their advise, even the new guys

 

[Electricalserv]

I have a assesment booked in for Thursday with niceic but cancelling to join napit which I am applying for tomorow

I am intending to do my 2391 before Xmas so if I am a napit member in the next month then I will never have to do these extra requirements? As long as I am with napit for two years then if I go abroad for a few years etc I can use this 2 years I will get from napit to never have to do this? Is this right?

You will only be a defined scope installer same as kitchen fitter. You would need 2330 level 3, 2360 level 3 or nvq3 as minimum plus 17th and 2391 within 12 months to be full scope. With your quals you are defined I'm afraid

 

[ezzzekiel]

its not saying anyone without 2391 is not competant (but proving competance is the issue with the various qualification routes out there) everyone knows that to pass the 2391 takes a certain ammount of knowledge and if all those who dont have it but are competant then a short course of about 8 weeks costing around £200ish shouldnt be a problem except for those who do not know there stuff, as the 2391 is a sought after qualification then it would simply be a cross to your bow - dont know if its available but maybe an exam sit only for the 2391 should be available for those with enough qualifications/experience to be deemed fit to go straight to exam.

 

[ezzzekiel]

You will only be a defined scope installer same as kitchen fitter. You would need 2330 level 3, 2360 level 3 or nvq3 as minimum plus 17th and 2391 within 12 months to be full scope. With your quals you are defined I'm afraid

not sure on this info i know for a fact my mate joined Napit full scope with only a one week Di qualification, he then gained 17th in first year and to date thats all he has and has been a member for about 4 years now and still dosent know his ar from his elbow yet never has any problems staying a member.

 

[Ponty Massive]

I was going to ask how much it cost and how long it takes

 

[Electricalserv]

not sure on this info i know for a fact my mate joined Napit full scope with only a one week Di qualification, he then gained 17th in first year and to date thats all he has and has been a member for about 4 years now and still dosent know his ar from his elbow yet never has any problems staying a member.

Sorry but what a load of rubbish. I know the requirements because I am part of the scheme. Mocking my scheme wuth il informed information has annoyed me because I know Napit is really strict on competency more than the other 2. If I was not on my phone I would provide you with the written evidence of what you need to be full scope. I will however when I'm home provide it for anyone unsure. You friend would be defined scope fact! Your gulabilty has let you down here. A Di course and he's full scope with Napit LAUGHABLE

 

[Des 56]

You will only be a defined scope installer same as kitchen fitter. You would need 2330 level 3, 2360 level 3 or nvq3 as minimum plus 17th and 2391 within 12 months to be full scope. With your quals you are defined I'm afraid

I was under that impression a few years ago,to be in Napit you had to have done an apprenticeship and hold the 2391
Then it was pointed out to me that.they permit entry as long as any of the requirements are gained within a 12 month

Now to me that was very surprising.
One of the main reasons I joined initially was the impression that you had to be a spark and trained in the traditional manner with apprenticeship and the testing quals etc

It now puzzles mme how it can be ok to be competent for a year without these things then you suddenly become incompetent 12 months after being accepted

I think the numbers game had a great impact on what was an early and commendable stance on training and qualification
It was probably the Niceic enthusiasm and acceptance of the very minimum entry criteria that changed things ( the gov dont like the nics actions one little bit with those minimum requirements) and thats why this level 3 standard is being thrown around

Its already been stated by an earlier poster that its not retrospective so the "never should have been" registered installers wont be affected

Its now too late to change what damage the Niceic have done to the domestic sector to make any difference for many years to come

 

[ezzzekiel]

oh im sorry didnt realise you were a Napit member that obviously makes me gulable according to you even though im also a NAPIT MEMBER have been for about 6 years and was there when he joined up even went to masfield training area with him for two day assesment where you pretty much keep taking the exam until you get all the answers correct.

 

[Big n Daft]

I'm 20 yr plus spark getting back in the game.Quals are:
C&G 236 pt 1&2
C&G Elecs Cert
Contacted Napit and goes like this for full scope:
Assessment
Get your 17th in 6mnths
2391 in 12mnths
When asked if I will be full scope upon joining and passing assessment the answer was yes.

 

[IQ Electrical]

oh im sorry didnt realise you were a Napit member that obviously makes me gulable according to you even though im also a NAPIT MEMBER have been for about 6 years and was there when he joined up even went to masfield training area with him for two day assesment where you pretty much keep taking the exam until you get all the answers correct.

Ah, the 'assessment', is that where the confusion is coming from?

Reading the NAPIT requirements, it seems that you can circumvent the normal entry requirements by 'passing' a NAPIT 'assessment'.

It was all about the numbers game, the strict entry requirements lasted around 1 year until it became obvious that it was having a significant impact on membership numbers.

I don't accept that the NICEIC alone 'caused damage to the domestic sector', each scheme has had a hand in that, the NICEIC just get blamed as the more well known operators.