No bathroom RCD

[yellowvanman]

Some numpty has put in a ceiling fan with a pull cord above a bath - ceiling is getting very damp and apparently water keeps dripping out, I guess due to condensation in the duct.

Customer (tenant) wants me to put in an in-line fan, and as it doesn't have a fan isolator switch, add an appropriate switch.

Old Wylex board, TNCS.

My thinking is what I've been asked to do doesn't infringe current regs. Fan is outside the bathroom, my only query is if I put in a pull isolator switch for the fan, is that required to be RCD protected? If so, can put a switch outside the bathroom just below the ceiling above the door. In which case no concealed wiring and not in a special location.

Thoughts? I would prefer to put in a pull switch! Have also suggested the tenant tells the landlord that CU upgrading would be a good idea.

 

[Flanders]

Is this not a job for the landlord to organise ?why is the tenant paying for this , i thought there was now a reg for cables running over a special location (the loft space) nead to be rcd protected as well

 

[davesparks]

Why would you fit an isolator in the bathroom for a piece of equipment which is not in the bathroom?

Isolators should ideally be placed adjacent to the equipment they isolate.

The means of isolation for an inline fan should be next to it, not in another room! Personally I fit a 4pin click flow socket to plug the fan in to, it makes repair/replacement easier

 

[yellowvanman]

davesparks:
The reason for the fan isolator was to turn it off at night, to reduce noise etc. (kids in house)

Flanders:
The regs say cables running THROUGH a special location need RCD protection (not over)

 

[yellowvanman]

Is this not a job for the landlord to organise ?why is the tenant paying for this , i thought there was now a reg for cables running over a special location (the loft space) nead to be rcd protected as well

Did I say the tenant was paying for it? Seemed logical that tenant organises it, tells landlord costs and if agreeable organises work being done at a convenient time!

 

[davesparks]

davesparks:
The reason for the fan isolator was to turn it off at night, to reduce noice etc. (kids in house)

Flanders:
The regs say cables running THROUGH a special location need RCD protection (not over)

So really you want a functional switch, it'll be no use as an isolator for the reasons above (unless it's properly lockable)

 

[Flanders]

Sorry my mistake it was because you said the tenant was the customer and i always see the customer is the person paying for the work any way im guessing you want to put a switch in for the fan so you can turn it on or off seperate to the light, as said just check about cables running in loft above bathrooms ,
Edit

Just read your post above sounds like you dont nead an rcd then

 

[sean_ork]

Why not fit a humidistat instead of the on/off switch - there's then no option not to turn on the fan when it's required, which might account for the damp ceiling.

 

[Midwest]

Why not fit a humidistat instead of the on/off switch - there's then no option not to turn on the fan when it's required, which might account for the damp ceiling.

It'll need rcd protection then for the humidistat. Something needs doing to the ducting, to get rid of the condensation.

 

[kenny7askew]

may also be worth thinking about a pull switch with neon built in so they can tell when its on as some in line fans are really quiet

 

[sparksburnout]

So really you want a functional switch, it'll be no use as an isolator for the reasons above (unless it's properly lockable)

Why do you need a lockable isolator for a bathroom fan????

 

[andyb]

Why do you need a lockable isolator for a bathroom fan????

You don't if the fan is by the switch or in the same room.
You need to be able to lock it in the off position if the fan is in a different location, say loft for instance.

 

[davesparks]

Why do you need a lockable isolator for a bathroom fan????

If an isolator is not located adjacent to/ in a position where it is in the control of the person working on the equipment then it needs to be lockable.

 

[sparksburnout]

If an isolator is not located adjacent to/ in a position where it is in the control of the person working on the equipment then it needs to be lockable.

So you think that every isolator that is not in the positions you are stating, in a domestic setting, is lockable then?? You guys don't do much domestic stuff obviously. If there is any doubt, just isolate it as the CU FFS.

 

[davesparks]

So you think that every isolator that is not in the positions you are stating, in a domestic setting, is lockable then?? You guys don't do much domestic stuff obviously. If there is any doubt, just isolate it as the CU FFS.

I don't think they are, but if you want to comply then they should be.
Bs7671 makes no distinction between domestic and any other installation (except the idiotic non combustible reg)

Fitting fan isolator switches above doors for online fans is ugly and pointless. If you want a useful isolator fit it next to the fan, preferably in the form of a plug and socket connection for easy disconnect and removal.
If the customer wants a ready means of switching it off for a switch next to the light switch or at socket level adjacent to the door. Fitting them at high level just looks ugly and puts them out of reasonable reach for a functional switch.

I can't stand the blindly copying what other people do mentality of some 'electricians' who seem to think that fan isolators must be at high level/above doors just because they've seen other people do it.
I've even had one slagging me off for not fitting a high level isolator for a wall mounted fan which was controlled by its own seperate switch on a 2g plate switch outside the bathroom!

 

[sparksburnout]

Dave, I think we are in some sort of conflicting agreement here. You are probably right about BS7671, but personally I think it has been taken to stupid levels domestically. As you have stated, the average householder does not want additional crap littering the newly installed offering from porcelainacossta or whatever the posh bog outlets are called, they just want wall to wall bling. Most fans are on timers and activated by the light switch, which is another topic.....In 99% of visits to work on clogged up fans Mrs Smith just sits downstairs watching Jeremy Kyle and comes no where near the bathroom, I have never felt that it is remotely likely that there would be a dangerous situation. If I did I would isolate the entire circuit feeding the fan at the CU. Personally, for in-line fans (these might be similar to online ones) mounted in the loft, I would just put them on 3 or 4 way click connectors so you just unplug the entire thing. As you intimate, I cannot see why this causes so much concern technically when it is always so simple practically.

 

[davesparks]

Like you I put them on click connectors. That way I can connect the flex to the fan outside of the loft and spend the minimum possible amount of time in the loft full of itchy-poo

I offer the customers the fan isolator at low level of they want one, but avoid putting them high level unless actually specified.

 

[bigspark17]

I don't think they are, but if you want to comply then they should be.
Bs7671 makes no distinction between domestic and any other installation (except the idiotic non combustible reg)

Fitting fan isolator switches above doors for online fans is ugly and pointless. If you want a useful isolator fit it next to the fan, preferably in the form of a plug and socket connection for easy disconnect and removal.
If the customer wants a ready means of switching it off for a switch next to the light switch or at socket level adjacent to the door. Fitting them at high level just looks ugly and puts them out of reasonable reach for a functional switch.

I can't stand the blindly copying what other people do mentality of some 'electricians' who seem to think that fan isolators must be at high level/above doors just because they've seen other people do it.
I've even had one slagging me off for not fitting a high level isolator for a wall mounted fan which was controlled by its own seperate switch on a 2g plate switch outside the bathroom!

Would you class this as isolating all poles for maintence? And out of interest how do you comply with MI of fusing to 3amp?

 

[davesparks]

[/B]
Would you class this as isolating all poles for maintence? And out of interest how do you comply with MI of fusing to 3amp?

What do you mean by all poles? In a TN installation only the line conductor need be isolated (with the exception of the main switch in an installation not under the control of a skilled person)

As far as I am concerned 3A fusing of fans can be buggered. The circuit ocpd is there to protect the cables, not the appliances, if they require protection it is up to the manufacturer to provide suitable protection in the appliance.
None of the devices we use for protection in installations are suitable for appliance protection, neither MCBs nor 1361 fuses provide suitable protection for appliances, you'd need the little 5x20mm fuses for that.

 

[Midwest]

Just to add to the debate. Click Scholmore offer a grid FCU, where the permanent supply to the fan can be fused. Or you can wire in such a way that the whole supply to the fan is fused. As to the positioning of fan isolator at high level (which I do myself I have to admit), I'm guessing perhaps the reasoning, is doesn't looking pleasing at normal switch height outside bathroom. Putting it at high level adds a small degree of safety from it being inadvertently turned back on during any maintenance, cleaning perhaps by the home owner.

 

[sparksburnout]

I still can't see wha'ts wrong with just putting them on a click connector. When you have unplugged it and are sitting with it on your knee I think all poles would definitely be isolated, not that its needed as has been mentioned. If your overly worried about doing the manufacturers job for them just stick an FCU in the loft and run it off that. I think you will find most householders want a minimum or other crap stuck anywhere including above doors.

 

[Midwest]

As I said, its not just electricians who require isolation for maintenance.

 

[sparksburnout]

As I said, its not just electricians who require isolation for maintenance.

Who the hell cleans them???

 

[Midwest]

Who the hell cleans them???

Bizarrely, some people do.

 

[sparksburnout]

Bizarrely, some people do.

All the ones I ever see are bunged up with enough fluff to fill an elephants belly button

 

[joehat]

Bizarrely, some people do.

Only every been told that they Hoover the fluff from view lol

 

[rich.250]

It's building regs where the requirement for fan isolators came from.
So that lights can be left on to work on the fan.
BS 7671 does not require triple like isolation as said above.
I agree that we shouldn't have to fuse down fans because the manufacturer can't be bothered to make parts to a higher current rating!!
Anyway under amend.3 we only have to take manufacturers instructions into account.... Not follow them like sheep!!

 

[davesparks]

It's building regs where the requirement for fan isolators came from.

Which building reg? Or which approved document should I look in to find it?

 

[joehat]

It's building regs where the requirement for fan isolators came from.
So that lights can be left on to work on the fan.
BS 7671 does not require triple like isolation as said above.
I agree that we shouldn't have to fuse down fans because the manufacturer can't be bothered to make parts to a higher current rating!!
Anyway under amend.3 we only have to take manufacturers instructions into account.... Not follow them like sheep!!

Also at per Reg, if it has a window (for light) is doesn't require an isolator for the fan!!!!

 

[HandySparks]

Also at per Reg, if it has a window (for light) is doesn't require an isolator for the fan!!!!

Echoing davesparks, where can I find this particular requirement stated?

 

[andyb]

I think that's a building regs requirement.

 

[joehat]

Echoing davesparks, where can I find this particular requirement stated?

Not sure which book but I know 100%

Basically it's common sense some of the regs. Eg if you have no window you can't see without a light so you need an isolator to keep lights on

 

[Midwest]

Also at per Reg, if it has a window (for light) is doesn't require an isolator for the fan!!!!

Reg 132.15.202; Every fixed electric motor shall be provided with an efficient means of switching off, readily accessible, easily operated and so placed as to prevent danger.

 

[joehat]

I will look later

 

[Andy78]

Reg 132.15.202; Every fixed electric motor shall be provided with an efficient means of switching off, readily accessible, easily operated and so placed as to prevent danger.

Which part of that reg requires a local fan isolator ?

 

[HandySparks]

Not sure which book but I know 100%

That's OK then. :lol:

Basically it's common sense some of the regs. Eg if you have no window you can't see without a light so you need an isolator to keep lights on

By that logic, it would be impermissible to install an in-line fan in a loft unless there were also a loft light installed so that you can see to maintain it. :rolleyes4:

 

[joehat]

That's OK then. :lol:



By that logic, it would be impermissible to install an in-line fan in a loft unless there were also a loft light installed so that you can see to maintain it. :rolleyes4:

There's exceptions to everything really, so you would still be an isolator. And a touch, but you can't do everything the same way, like a tt system and a tncs requirements are different as to zs

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Which part of that reg requires a local fan isolator ?

Think it's the fact that the fan uses an electric motor to operate?

 

[Midwest]

Which part of that reg requires a local fan isolator ?

Reg537.3.2; devices for switching off for mechanical devices (is an electric fan a mechanical device?). Reg 537.3.2.1, 'notes' gives examples for switching off for mechanical maintenance; multipole switch, circuit breaker, CPS, control switch operated contactor & plug & socket.

 

[Midwest]

And there is the scenario of isolating the fan at night, so one can go for a silent pee. Not sure that's in the regs though!