No Earth available at the cut out?

[craig1000]

Hi need to clarify as quickly as possible a situation?
No clear main earth terminal at the incoming suppy?
small bit of stranded remains off the cable sheath but nut soething to connect to.
Definatly no earth rod!
I want to split the incoming supply after the meter via 100amp link blocks to provide a sub board to use for new circuits to be rcd protected feeding the kitchen & bathroom.
Customer doesnt want a full board change for fear of old wiring not holding in on a rcd.
No where to connect by earth from my new CU.
Can get a good Ze of 0.11 off the existing wylex rewirable CU but i am positive this is reading through the gas & water bonds & possibly even the cpc's in the outgoing circuits somehow.
Customer doesnt want me investigating & the cost involved of additional works the old wiring.
The DNO are not interested but should push them harder to come out & provide a MET?
Should they charge for this?
Should i put a rod in, trouble being in a built up street so where would be a problem.
Supply is a T-N-S fed via old lead paper underground cable.

Advice needed ASAP?

Thanks in advance!

 

[telectrix]

if you alter any circuit, you should fit an RCD/RCBO if such is required by current regs.

 

[Guitarist]

I really feel for you mate. It is a minefield starting out, the biggest problem being customers who just won't listen.
I know it is too late now, but in future if you see something you don't like before starting the job, make it a requirement that it is sorted before any work commences. It's the only way you will not stress and worry.
That way, if the customer is awkward, just walk away.....

 

[craig1000]

Telectrix- Thank you ;-)
That is the path i shall go down although i am sure this could result in potential customer's being scared off by the price? & possible additional works would it not?
I.e circuit working fine as it is, i break into to it for an additional light or socket say, means the added cost of a RCD or RCBO & then if the circuit is not holding in the added cost of finding & rectifying the fault! Agree it would then be safer & that is the route i shall take but has it not being shown to put customers off as a simple relatively low cost job could become allot more expensive!

 

[Guitarist]

Before you agree to RCD protect any circuit, IR the circuit line and neutral to earth first. That should pick up and obvious problems you may encounter.

 

[richy3333]

The Regs are a minefield and you haven't even yet had to consider the ambiguous parts! There's no substitute for getting your head down and learning them. I guess the onsite guide might help you particularly with situations like you have highlighted, with requirements for RCD protection when doing additions etc. If you are doing work such as what you have described, make sure you have a really good nosey about and do some tests prior to quoting so you aren't going in blind. If you had tested the external earth fault loop impedance before doing the job you would have found no earth etc. It's not a criticism but it highlights the need to do a good survey before starting work. At that point you could have flagged it to the customer and told them you'd come and do the work once they had arranged for the earth to be repaired?

If you have now created a TT system you need to make sure your work (and I guess the whole installation, because you will have to TT this also?) complies with the Regs for TT systems - up front 100ma RCD etc and all new/amended circuits protected by 30mA RCD/RCBO etc.

In so far as putting something in writing just list the facts out to the client as you have done previously in this thread. Something like:

Dear...
during the course of the electrical work you have employed me to do it has become apparent that the earthing arrangement supplied by the DNO is not operating. As they originally supplied an earth to the property they are required under ESQCR 2002/2006/2009 to maintain the earth. I have informed you of this and in fact assisted you in calling the DNO to arrange for them to visit. Unfortunately you were unable to allow them access at the time of their visit because... It is imperative that you contact... to arrange for the remedial work to be undertaken. The work I have completed to ensure the property is supplied with an earth should only be considered to be a temporary arrangement until such times as you allow... to attend at the property and rectify the problem.

Hope that helps?

P.S.
Customers are always your best friend until something goes wrong. Assume nothing when you visit properties to quote and don't be afraid to walk away as it's your backside on the line. The only thing worth a sleepless night is a hot babe

 

[Guitarist]

Well said rich. It's really hard to turn down work, but if the customer is awkward at the start then it doesn't bode well..... Never be afraid to walk away.

 

[craig1000]

Hey Rich3333, very much appreciate your response & its the exact thing im looking for. As iv said im being honest rather than leading people to believe what im not. I am a good spark with ten years experience but domestic electrics & the design of etc is a different game to me being an installation spark on a commercial site. What i can guarantee is that my work will be good & to the required standard (i know i clearly don't know things at the moment but will continue to swat up as i have been, both by asking questions on here etc & by reading through the big green book & on site guide etc) & il make sure i find out & learn what these things are domestically & in terms of testing etc. I can only learn as i go along with help hence my post on here. If i balls anything up i will correct it at my own cost if necessaries(in terms of making the wrong selection of something etc)
Safety is my most paramount concern & with regards to that job i shall do a letter to that effect & make sure in future i am much better prepared & do a better assessment when assessing!
The mental concern is the attitude of some customers, happy enough to spend a load on new kitchen & bathroom but not on decent electrics! As i mentioned earlier in thread, before i put the earth rod in there was nothing, the existing old wylex rewire able had a good loop reading but it was through the gas & water & existing circuits in the CU as i also got a reading without the gas & water bond connected! ;-(

 

[craig1000]

I really feel for you mate. It is a minefield starting out, the biggest problem being customers who just won't listen.
I know it is too late now, but in future if you see something you don't like before starting the job, make it a requirement that it is sorted before any work commences. It's the only way you will not stress and worry.
That way, if the customer is awkward, just walk away.....

Cheers mate, appreciate what your saying & hope i come across as i am which is someone who does care & does want to do it right & if i don't i shall sort it. As i say i come from a commercial background doping installation where im not responsible for the design etc & supply so issues like this are alien to me. I need to learn & will & do read the green books but its allot to take in & with help by asking on here i shall learn,! really hope i don't come across as a have a go spark. I am a decent one & my intentions are good but i need to learn more & be tougher when it comes to customers not wanting things done & better at my initial look at a job & be prepared to walk away!
Thanks again for your constructive posts ;-)

 

[Guitarist]

Craig, I come from an industrial background myself, and if something needed doing, we just did it. The customer is the hardest part of being self-employed in a domestic situation.

 

[craig1000]

Hey everyonw ho has replied on this thread, thanks for the reply's.
I would like to now clarify i am gona get this right.
I have installed a eart rod, readings are ok but would be far better if the lead sheaf was used as per original( i have loop tested of the stranded remain from the sheath) or if it was converted to PME.
This being the case i shall be issuing the customer a letter as described by richy3333 & getting a signed acceptance of this.
In the meantime the TT temporary supply i have created needs to be backed up front end by a 100 milliamp RCD, the cut out fuse is only 60amp so should i be looking to get a 63 amp, 100 milliamp, wholesalers were today struggling to find this? Would this suffice as the switch before i split the supply!
I am assuming i should just go ahead & take responsibility for his existing CU of old wylex rewirables & as that has no proper earth i shall earth it (have done already) & let the up front RCD cover both CU's (which i know now doing this i may as well have installed a new split load anyway) & if his circuits don't hold i shall rectify.
I apologise to anyone who thinks of me as not knowing what im doing & should do if i call myself a spark etc but the difference is i care to get it right, hence my continued postings ;-)

 

[telectrix]

on a TT system, you should be looking at fitting a 30mA RCD. i've not read every post, but it boils down to what the customer is prepared to spend. you have already made the installation safer, so if he won't pay for additional work, cut losses and walk away.

 

[craig1000]

Hi that is what i shall do then but at the same time knowing i haven't got it quite right bothers me. The new circuits i added are on a 63amp 30 milliamp RCD, kitchen sockets, cooker, & a spur upstairs.
His existing install is not as he wanted it left alone as he didn't want additional cost of me having to put it right if things started to trip.
His existing install has a far better loop reading than the new 6 way CU i have installed which is off the earth rod i have installed. I haven't yet moved any of his old circuits or put a earth onto his old CU from my new MET i installed from the earth rod as i am unsure if i should. If i do i will be giving his old install a far worse earth path & loop reading than what it has already but i am sure his existing path is through the bonds & or existing out going circuits cpc's.
It only has a 60 amp main fuse, 16 mm tails, I split this after the meter through 100 amp blocks & then fed my new CU & didn't touch any of the existing stuff.
Should i go back to add anything else or as you say walk away now.
Options would appear to be, move his circuits across to my new CU & turn it into a split load CU if they pass an IR test. back up the whole install via a 100 milliamp RCD before where i have split the supply. leaving it all off the earth rod but RCD protected.
Get some connection on to the existing bit of remaining cable that off the supply cable sheaf onto my MET & give everything a better earth ( I know this should be the DNO's responsibility) I have read conflicting info on whether a TT system needs 100 milliamp or 30 milliamp protection?
All my new circuits are protected by my new 63amp 30 milliamp main switch in the new CU, didn't split it as for obvious reasons of only having 3 circuits, & the rest of the house, up & down lights & sockets up & down one circuit are left on old CU so under fault condition & the RCD popping you will still have lighting & power.
If i need to go back at my cost to get i right i will!
Either way i will write the customer a letter explaining my position to cover my ---. The problem has arose from a customer not wanting to spend the money to be safe & me not being experienced or strong enough to insist on things & not having walked away when he wouldnt allow me to do a full job, i know i am at fault & i shall learn but in the meantime i want to get it as correct as i reasonably can.

 

[richy3333]

OK, it sounds as though you haven't touched his existing board and earthing? Just fitted your new board, circuits and the rod covers only your install? That being the case just make sure it is abundantly clear in you arse covering letter that his existing supply has a bad/ non existent earth. Get paid and walk away, the customer clearly doesn't care about his earth until it all goes -----up!

 

[Guitarist]

The "whole" of a TT system must be covered by at least a 100mA RCD, but there are several other circuit types which must have 30mA RCD protection, which is why it is easier and more cost-effective to use 30mA for the whole install. Look in your OSG for the list.
From what you are saying, the original is relying on the extraneous pipework, with the new on an electrode?

 

[Des 56]

Initially assessing the installation more thoroughly may have helped ,but thats a business decision not a safety decision,you will find your own degree of initial inspection required,nobody can tell you how much or little that should be



Writing a letter would be a fine thing to do,but personally I wouldn't give him or it the time of day
You will no doubt be issuing certification,there is a box in the certificate for comments on the existing installation
All of your comments can be highlighted on that certificate and a copy retained for future reference,why would a covering letter be any more effective


Many seem to believe that when we work in a property,we automatically assume responsibility for the whole of that installation and what a load of garbage that is

My advise If you have done your work adequately,the customer and the supplier dont seem too bothered about the existing, get on to the next job and don't take other peoples problems home with you