No Paperwork For New Consumer Unit Installation

[andyb]

Hi mate. Thanks for getting back. It's been a bit since I've read the thread but I thought that there were more points. Sorry don't have the time at the mo to go through it all.
Can I please play devils advocate here and pretend to be the guy answer the points:

1. (I don't know how he can come back on this one)
2. What figures are erroneous and why are they?
3. It is up to the customer to notify Building Control. I verbaly told them this. (Some people on this site say it is up to the customer)
4. I have supplied an EIC.
5. A verbal quote was provided. (does it need to be in writing by law)
6. A verbal notification of the right to cancel was provided. (again, does it need to be in writing by law)

It's not to get at you, it's more a case of what you might receive.

Item 3, The installer is responsible for notification under Part P Spoon,

 

[Spoon]

Item 3, The installer is responsible for notification under Part P Spoon,

I have read some post on here where people think it's the customer who is responsible for notification. I don't agree with them.

 

[Midwest]

Item 3, The installer is responsible for notification under Part P Spoon,

If the installer is in a scheme.
If he/she is not, then the house owner would need to submit a building reg application to inform the LBC of their intention of carrying out notifiable work before starting. Like any other building regulation application, it is the responsibility of the property owner, not the builder or in this case the installer, to ensure correct process is followed. The property owner can apply for building reg application, after any work has been completed - regularisation certificate - but its expensive, mine charge £618.

 

[andyb]

If the installer is in a scheme.
If he/she is not, then the house owner would need to submit a building reg application to inform the LBC of their intention of carrying out notifiable work before starting. Like any other building regulation application, it is the responsibility of the property owner, not the builder or in this case the installer, to ensure correct process is followed. The property owner can apply for building reg application, after any work has been completed - regularisation certificate - but its expensive, mine charge £618.

Well if you look at part p, it only mentions the installer. It does so when talking about scheme members, third party notifaction and labc notification. In every case it says 'the installer'
It does say that any non compliance and the house holder could be issued with an order to correct, but I'm sure that part p itself is to be complied with by the installer.
I'll have a read when I get home.

 

[Midwest]

The key word is 'person responsible' for the work. My LBC building reg applications form says 'Homeowners use this form, when intending to build a house or extension'. This application form also covers electrical installations.

Part P1 3.1, gives 3 ways to certify that the works complies with Building Regs (I haven't got the yellow 3A one yet);

a. Self Cert by registered competent person
b. Third Party certification by a registered third party certifier
c. Certification by Building Control

So if you are not 'registered', your only option is (c), which means applying before work begins. The Building Regs submission form states; Applicants details Full name and address of person intending to have the work carried out.

 

[andyb]

The key word is 'person responsible' for the work. My LBC building reg applications form says 'Homeowners use this form, when intending to build a house or extension'. This application form also covers electrical installations.

Part P1 3.1, gives 3 ways to certify that the works complies with Building Regs (I haven't got the yellow 3A one yet);

a. Self Cert by registered competent person
b. Third Party certification by a registered third party certifier
c. Certification by Building Control

So if you are not 'registered', your only option is (c), which means applying before work begins. The Building Regs submission form states; Applicants details Full name and address of person intending to have the work carried out.

When I've looked at this before I'm sure that no mater which of the three options you use, it's the installer that's responsible for doing it.
So if you are not a scheme member and intend to get building control to test your work it's you the installer that needs to do this. Not the home owner.

 

[Midwest]

When I've looked at this before I'm sure that no mater which of the three options you use, it's the installer that's responsible for doing it.
So if you are not a scheme member and intend to get building control to test your work it's you the installer that needs to do this. Not the home owner.

I've attached my LBC Building Reg application; http://www.westoxon.gov.uk/media/1038651/Building-Regulations-application-form.pdf
No mention of the installer on it (see item 7). And the council want £400 + vat! I did see on this thread, that some lbc are only charging about £70, if the installer can prove competence (i.e. not with a scheme). I think most responsible installers (i.e. not in scheme), clarify the situation with their lbc before starting a job. Having always been in a scheme, I've never tested the waters with my lbc, to see what happens in these situations. I go back to my earlier comment, every other building reg application, is done by the homeowner and not the builder.

 

[andyb]

I'm not taking about applying for planning permission or what one councils take on part p may be.
I'm just talking about approved document P and what it says. That is, work must be notified by the installer.
Either that or I'm going to look very silly when I get home and look it up.

 

[Midwest]

I'm willing to be convinced otherwise. Took those three options out of the 2013 Part P document. As I say, always been in a scheme, so haven't had to go down the non registered route about notifying. The building regs application for electrical installations, is the same document as for building work, replacing windows, fuel burning appliances etc (is with my council anyway). Read some threads in the past, where other members stated the same. Wait to see what you think, when you get home. Not worth loosing sleep over, mind.

 

[Octopus]

"the person responsible for the work" is, IMHO, the installer.

 

[andyb]

I'm willing to be convinced otherwise. Took those three options out of the 2013 Part P document. As I say, always been in a scheme, so haven't had to go down the non registered route about notifying. The building regs application for electrical installations, is the same document as for building work, replacing windows, fuel burning appliances etc (is with my council anyway). Read some threads in the past, where other members stated the same. Wait to see what you think, when you get home. Not worth loosing sleep over, mind.

Basically it's in p1 section 3 as you say in post 245,

In the following paragraphs it goes into more details on how to comply.
I've been trying to copy and paste but it wont let me change the file format. So I'll have type a few lines in.


Regarding Certification by a 3rd party
3.5 says an 'installer' who is not registered may appoint registered 3rd party
3.6 says within 5 days of completion the 'installer' must notify the registered 3rd party

Regarding Certification by a building control body
3.8 says if the 'installer' in not registered or does not appoint a 3rd party, the 'installer' must notify building control

It goes on in much the same way.

It does say however on page iv (responsibility for compliance) The building owner may also be responsible for ensuring that work complies with building regs.
But that's after saying the 'agent, designer, builder, installer are responsible.

Whatever the answer I hope that it's not the home-owners responsibility, in my opinion it should be the person carrying out the work.

 

[newtothis]

Ultimate responsibility of the householder relates to the fact
that the householder is firmly 'in the frame' for any expenses incurred, and named on notices served by LABC

That's what I was told.
Humbly asking as a trainee: is it true ? :uhoh2:

 

[andyb]

Ultimate responsibility of the householder relates to the fact
that the householder is firmly 'in the frame' for any expenses incurred, and named on notices served by LABC

That's what I was told.
Humbly asking as a trainee: is it true ? :uhoh2:

Don't be humble newtothis, all questions are good questions and there is not an electrician on here who was not a trainee once.

That's probably true in my opinion.
The installer is responsible for complying with part p and notification. If however this is not undertaken or the work does not comply it will be the owner who gets the notice.

 

[Richard Burns]

I think that the specific situation is not clear cut; references to the person intending to carrying out the work, could mean either the installer or the householder.
In practice there have been prosecutions of installers for not complying with building regulations, this is another building regulation and so if the installer is responsible enough to be prosecuted they could also be responsible for notification.
However the majority of building regulations just state that X must happen and do not assign applicability.

The wording for the section on giving of a building notice or deposit of plans12.—(1) This regulation applies to a person who intends to—
(a) carry out building work;...

The meaning of "carry out" could mean the person arranging to have the work done or it could mean the person actually doing the work.
I think it is worded like this to allow joint responsibility; if one does not notify, the other must.

 

[Trimglafix]

I know ignorance is considered no defence, but after reading the recent comments; what chance do I as a non builder, non electrician etc. have in knowing about this requirement? I knew nothing at all about LBC/LABC until this incident.
Even us 'no-trade' people knew about CORGI (maybe that's why they changed it!) so it is possible to get the message out there to the masses when necessary.