Not sure what our options are. Advice required for homeowner please.

[eiluj68]

Hi

Apologies for the length of this post but I'd like to provide as much information as possible

We moved house last October knowing that the property would require a full rewire. Our electrician completed the rewire (including new consumer unit) in December last year and although we were unhappy about his reliability at points during the process, we were pleased that the job had been completed and that he had issued a certificate detailing the work done. The rewire didn't include any work in the bathroom or kitchen as our intention was to completely refurbish these rooms at a later date.

That time has now come and we decided against using the previous electrician due to the reliability issues mentioned above A local electrician came to the house last night to discuss our requirements. He had a few questions about the exisiting electrical set up so I dug out the 3 page certificate that the previous electrician had issued. Upon viewing the certificate the electrician commented that the certificate didn't show which body the issuing electrician belonged to. He said that without the registration body information and registration number the certificate would not be acceptable to building control. He also said that the previous work should have been notified to building control either prior to work commencing by an unregistered person or afterwards by the registered 'competent person'.

This set off alarm bells. I've spent this morning online trying to find him listed with one of the registered bodies but he doesn't appear on any of the sites I've been to. I've looked at NICEIC, ELECSA, NAPIT,BSI, Kitemark and Benchmark Certification Ltd (CORGI Membership). Are there any others he could be registered with that would allow him to certify his work?

We had used this electrician on a smaller job (wiring an ensuite shower room) at our old home 3 or 4 years ago and had been really pleased with his work. He had issued a certificate for this work too and also came heavily recommended on a local community website, so we had no reason to think he shouldn't be certifying his own work. Although no rewiring took place in the bathroom, kitchen and garden areas I'm assuming that this is notifiable work because he installed a new consumer unit?

I'm not sure what to do next. I haven't spoken with the electrician yet because I want to get my facts straight first. I'm worried about contacting the council because I've read that they can fine the householder upto £5000 if work that should have been notified in advance hasn't been. I also need to understand what we might be forced to do if the certificate is invalid. Are we likely to have to lift all our floorboards again and reexpose all the cables within the walls ?

This is so frustrating because we would never have had the electrician undertake the job if there'd been any suggestion that he could not certify his own work.

Apart from berating us for being so foolish as to take him at his word without checking him out further at the time, can anyone offer any constructive advice on how we should deal with this situation. Although we've lived at our current address less than a year we want to ensure that we don't have any problems when we come to sell in the future.

Many thanks for taking the time to read this and for any useful advice you may be able to provide.

 

[Des 56]

Nice to see at least one homeowner who has heard of building reg part p, and his responsibility
He is almost unique,most dont know or dont care,

I suppose he is the type who would report himself to the police if he exceeded the speed limit then

Why so much slagging off of the spark,apparently, the job was to the customers satisfaction until this notification issue

The certificate standard ( its about par for the course for its mistakes) I have seen much, much, worse than that

At least he gave a certificate


He may very well be an excellent installer

 

[Dunc]

A PSC of 0.29kA seems a bit low considering the recorded Ze. There's definitely parts of that certificate that aren't filled out correctly but it's been done by someone with a fair understanding of the regs. Have a chat with the guy who did the work and ask him where the certificate from the LABC is as you haven't received it yet. Make your next moved based on the answers he gives to that question.

 

[eiluj68]

Nice to see at least one homeowner who has heard of building reg part p, and his responsibility
He is almost unique,most dont know or dont care,

Actually it's a her in this case :smilewinkgrin:

There's definitely parts of that certificate that aren't filled out correctly but it's been done by someone with a fair understanding of the regs. Have a chat with the guy who did the work and ask him where the certificate from the LABC is as you haven't received it yet. Make your next moved based on the answers he gives to that question.

Thanks for this advice. Having read everyone's replies I think this is the reasonable response to take. There's a chance that he'll suggest that I should have contacted them myself at the time, but let's see.

Thanks to everyone who took the time to offer advice. It's been most useful.

 

[eiluj68]

Ok. We've moved on a bit since my last post.

I spoke with our old plumber whilst on my way to work this morning. He didn't believe that building control needed to be involved and that he'd done around 10 rewires in the local area recently without building control involvement. He said that he sent a copy of the certificate he gave us to NICEIC and that they would have forwarded it onto the local building control office if necessary.

Yesterday I emailed our local building control department. I asked a generic question about electrical rewiring of a domestic property but didn't give them my address as I wanted to keep the query general. I emailed them from work, forgetting that my telephone contact details would be on there :dunce: and they called me a short while ago. The guy I spoke with was pretty helpful and sympathetic to our situation once I explained it. He confirmed that the work should have been Part P certified and that the certificate we received was not suitable for the work that had been carried out. He suggested that we request a Part P certificate from the electrician and also to contact NICEIC to ask them to check their records to see if the electrician is registered with them as had been implied during the earlier phone conversation. I've emailed NICEIC and will wait to hear back from them before contacting the electrician again.

The building control guy said that they wouldn't investigate the work proactively and we were not likely to 'get into trouble' as they had plenty of unauthorised building work to keep them busy. Our problem would be when we come to sell as the buyers solicitor would ask to see the Part P certificate.

If the original electrician is unable to issue a Part P certificate then we would have 3 options,

1. Find a Part P registered electrician prepared to Part P certify the work done by the original electrican (unlikely I think)
2. Request that our local building control department issue a certificate. This would involve them sending someone qualified to check the work done (may involve exposing some of the work currently hidden under floorboards and in walls) and cost £444 inc vat
3. Ignore the lack of Part P certification but be prepared for problems when selling the house in the future (probably in around 5yrs)

Anyone care to comment on the above? :thinking:

 

[Octopus]

So if he's claiming NICEIC registration did he give you his number?

 

[eiluj68]

So if he's claiming NICEIC registration did he give you his number?

He didn't volunteer it, no. I didn't want to spook him (if he is attempting to mislead) by asking for it. At the moment he thinks I'm casually querying the matter because of a conversation with a friend who is also having a rewire at the moment (this is true).

I'll wait for a response from NICEIC before I speak with him again. If they have no record of him I'll catch him out. If they do then all is well and good and I can get him to issue the Part P certificate he should have issued originally.

I'm not particulary worried that the work he's done is dangerous or incorrect because I know he's been working successfully in the local area for many years. He's actually a really nice guy to have around and we would have used him again but for his unreliability on the previous job. I suspect he's been competently working for many years and resents the new regulations and the need to be reassessed for work he's been doing without any issues for the best part of his working life. However, I don't appreciate being lied to (if that is the case) and the trouble this will cause us when we sell. Ironically, my partner has the ability to rewire the electrics but is not qualified to do so. We took the decision to get a properly qualified electrician in for the job to simplify things.

 

[Dunc]

Sounds far too complicated a situation for my liking and no doubt a touch stressful. My gut feeling is he's not a NIC registered contractor. If this is the case and can be proved without a doubt I would get the council to notify the work at a cost of £444 (a properly registered electrician is not allowed to sign off someone else's work so that's out of the question) then persue the electrician for the costs incurred since he has acted fraudulently. It might be the kick up the a**e he needs if he is not, as I suspect, notifying work like the rest of us who do it by the book. An excuse of 'I don't like the new regs' would be unacceptable in my book. Best of luck.

 

[eiluj68]

NICEIC have confirmed that the electrician is not registered with them.

We now have to decide whether or not to invite building control in to assess the work. We'd be happier to have the work properly certified but the cost of doing so, not to mention any additional costs if they deem the work not upto standard, are a worry. We can try and pursue the electrician for costs but I imagine this will be both time-consuming and stressful.

I've emailed building control for more information on the assessment but does anyone know what happens if they deem that the electrical work does not meet regulations? Obviously, whatever is wrong will have to be corrected but will they charge us the £444 more than once?

 

[Knobhead]

Thank you for keeping us informed of things. I was an industrial electrician so most of what’s gone on has never concerned me. I’d recognised how stupid the domestic side of the industry had gone, but not to this extent! It’s bureaucracy gone mad!

I’m sorry I can’t help but from me you have my full support if I can offer it in any way.

 

[Des 56]

eiluj68
I gave a rather abrupt reply earlier.more to do with the pathetic part p situation than anything else
I will however try and give some balance and reason to this one

Because of the complete and almost total lack of enforcement of the part p building reg by either the electrical bodies or building control.it is not a big a problem, if it is indeed a problem to yourself

Firstly, as you have found,building control have neither the skill or the interest in enforcing the requirements

I am registered for this nonesense part p thing,but registration among electricians is not universal by a long way,many registered on schemes couldn't compare for competence with many who are not registered
The scheme membership is a long way away from having competence has their primary concern,if they have concern at all

When you come to sell your property,you may have to tick a box in the home information pack that asks if any notifiable work under part p has been carried out
You will tick,yes,you may well be asked for the part p certificate that you dont posess

Any house sale that has a recent (within 5 years)periodic inspection,will satisfy all but the most demanding of solicitors and buyers and costs as little as perhaps £150 depending obviously on the size of the property

(There are builders out there currently slapping in the wiring on extensions and new builds having no competence,never mind registration)
They then take out a small fee insurance policy to cover the electrical installation and get around it with impunity

The pir would be the logical step and should be carried out by an electrician who is experienced and competent with perhaps the C+G 2391 as evidence of that competence
It is a far better demonstration of competence than relying on a scheme membership only

You may hear that certification is prefered by an Niceic contractor,this is a myth that pervades councils, architects and estate agents etc
You could have a person who has never held a screwdriver in his hand doing your pir, with the office as the unseeing signatures to a sheet of toilet roll as back up

But if safety is also your priority,make sure the scheme member and importantly the person actually doing the pir, is competent and dont rely on that membership alone

If you get a pir of a competent electrician you will more than likely have no problems whatsoever when you sell
You will find your concerns at the moment will become wonder at why you thought there was a problem at all

 

[eiluj68]

eiluj68
...But if safety is also your priority,make sure the scheme member and importantly the person actually doing the pir, is competent and dont rely on that membership alone

If you get a pir of a competent electrician you will more than likely have no problems whatsoever when you sell
You will find your concerns at the moment will become wonder at why you thought there was a problem at all

Thank you. Having been the recipient of so many useful and informative responses on this forum has enabled us to take a more balanced view of the situation.

Whilst I'm very unhappy that the electrician lead us into believing that the certificate he issued complied with current standards, I do understand why he might feel that the new regulations are a waste of time and money for someone with his experience. On the other hand, the consumer needs to be protected against someone with little or no experience/competence. Whether the current system addresses this point is debateable.

I do think that it's important for potential customers to be properly informed and to that end I will probably add a post to our local community forum recommendations board suggesting that people check in advance that the electrical work they have done will be certified properly and that they understand the value of that certification. Just because someone is Part P registered it doesn't follow that they will necessarily do a good job. Similarly, someone who isn't Part P registered can still do a good and safe job. However, there are legal obligations on the householder to ensure that any notifiable electrical work done is correctly certified and if they fail do this there is the potential for problems when a property is sold on, even if the local authority building control are too busy or uninterested in getting involved.

 

[SW1970]

Thank you for providing such informative posts eiluj68. Good luck with your next step.

Folks - on the basis that any domestic client is usually a lay person, unless an electrician specifically says work will not be notified to LABC (even though it is supposed to be), I would wager that they have failed in their duty of care to the customer and should be liable for any costs that arise from that failure to notify. Isn't this a case for lawyers, perhaps after a "this is what I think what are you going to do about it" discussion with the sparks?

 

[JamesBrownLive]

Just what is this 'Part P' certificate that people keep referring to? Is it just an acknowledgement that is sent out by a scheme to confirm that works have been duly registered with LABC?

 

[simonspark]

And I think max allowed Zs's are wrong, as well as what Rappid commented on. And there is something going on with his max measured Zs when compared to the R1+R2 and Ze. But doesn't look too bad. He seems to be a sparky. Just didn't log it with building control. Eiluj68, when you get the next load of works done, get a bloke who will log it with building control and ask him to issue you with a completion cert for the work he does, and register it with the council and a periodic inspection of the works the other bloke. That should cover you. Sort of! did.

 

[simonspark]

Good point JamesBrownLive. I have never seen this mythical Part P Certificate. All I've seen is a piece of paper with my name on it, sent to my customer, from the niceic. I think it says certificate on it somewhere. And something about a 6 year guarantee. But Part P? Don't think so