Plant Pot Brigade!

[andrew692003]

Does anyone want to join?

As I've stated before I have never used these between floors or in any new builds so don't get out the sniper rifles straight away!

The only time I have used clay pots has been in lofts where access isn't a problem and usually in older dwelling houses. Now, the last time I did this was a good couple of years ago not that that matters as I can't see a problem with it.

When fitting the pots I always make sure that the insulation is clear of the hole and all dust etc has been cleaned away then I fit the pot with the transformer outside lying on top of the insulation. I always push the insulation up against the pot which makes it very steady.

At the end of the day all you are trying to achieve is to stop debris falling on the lamp and letting the heat dissipitate to possibly stop causing fire so, does it matter whether you use a firehood, plasterboard box or a bloody clay plant pot?

Firehoods can be expensive and a PIA to fit, Plasterboard boxes take time to build and even the cheapest Firerated fittings can still up the cost considerabaly.

Cheers

 

[cbw]

Are you Bill or Ben?
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
I think they work fine!

 

[martysparky]

Regulation section 527 Page 107

SELECTION AND ERECTION OF WIRING SYSTEMS TO MINIMIZE THE SPREAD OF FIRE.

How could we be sure FLOWER POTS meet these requirements?

Also, Reg: 133 page 18

SELECTION OF ELECTRICAL EQUIPMENT

reg, 133.1.1 Every item of equipment shall comply with the appropriate British standard. In the absence of British standard reference shall be made to the appropriate IET standard or appropriate national standard of another country.

reg; 511 COMPLIANCE WITH STANDARDS

?CAN YOU CONFIRM COMPLIANCE?

Has anybody tested the FLOWER POT method or is it just theory?

because if it is not means tested I for sure wouldn't want that empirical test on my installation!

Unless of course it proved effective.

 

[andrew692003]

Is there a reg that actually states you have to use a Firehood or a Protective cover of any kind when fitting downlighters which has a loft space above?

I know a plant pot doesn't have a BS number but either does a box made of plasterboard! All I'm saying is it gives more than adequate cover for the reason you are using it.

If you can find a Reg Marty that would be helpful, I'll have a look tomorrow!

Cheers

 

[martysparky]

Part P states in the MATERIALS ANS WORKMANSHIP section

....Any building work....In accordance of regulation 7...show compliance...appropriate use of product bearing markings in accordance with the construction products directive.

http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/BR_PDF_ADP_2006.pdf

Plasterboard is a commonly used means tested and regulated product to BS and is advised to be used a fire retardant lining to timber by the ESC, however, I've not seen them suggest to use a plasterboard box as a fire hood but i have for ventilation routes via the ceiling void.

Maybe you should contact the IET direct and ask them there view.

Innovation is a great thing but a prison cell would not be so great if a Flower pot put you there!
Is saving the customer a few quid worth that?

I would love to see a guide book state use flower pots but I don't think its going to happen.

Is the handle turning enough!..

 

[GaryM]

Have a read of this link

 

[yido81]

well, the way i look at it is that if i was to use plant on an installation, then go home after the job is complete!! whats to stop the customer going up in there loft and having a route about and braking one of the pots by mistake and not realising it, then later theres a fire in the house. fire brigade investigate and say the fire would not have spread to the loft then to other houses and killed matey next door, becuase of the pots being used!! and we know that in plenty of old terrace house theres a lack of good partition between them in the loft!! so i think for the sake of an extra couple of quid, its worth putting fire rated fittings in!! what do other people think??

 

[andrew692003]

Cheers Gary I read that link before but I've read it again.

Quote:

Downlighters in ceilings under roof spaces

However, in situations where downlighters are installed in ceilings under roof spaces, where debris or thermal insulation may accumulate on top of the luminaire, a case could be made for building a plasterboard or metal box around the luminaire or installing a fire hood. When boxing in a luminaire, in the absence of any manufacturers’ guidance, a gap of about 100mm around the luminaire and 75mm above is recommended to allow for heat dissipation.

As I've said I have only installed these in private housing which are usually detached but you do raise a good point there Yido but whats to stop someone knocking over a firehood or a plasterboard box in the same situation? Nothing I would guess.

I also realise that clay pots don't have a BS number but does a plasterboard box made by you or I have a BS number? The materials may do but the workmanship may not!

At the end of the dayIMO its all about common sense and good erection methods, all you are looking for is something that gives you protection against debris falling on the lamp if you were worried about the spread of fire you wouldn't use downlighters at all.

I'm not trying to antagonise anyone here just liking the healthy debate!

Cheers

 

[roukel01]

Regulation section 527 Page 107

SELECTION AND ERECTION OF WIRING SYSTEMS TO MINIMIZE THE SPREAD OF FIRE.

How could we be sure FLOWER POTS meet these requirements?

Also, Reg: 133 page 18

SELECTION OF ELECTRICAL EQUIPMENT

reg, 133.1.1 Every item of equipment shall comply with the appropriate British standard. In the absence of British standard reference shall be made to the appropriate IET standard or appropriate national standard of another country.

reg; 511 COMPLIANCE WITH STANDARDS

?CAN YOU CONFIRM COMPLIANCE?

Has anybody tested the FLOWER POT method or is it just theory?

because if it is not means tested I for sure wouldn't want that empirical test on my installation!

Unless of course it proved effective.

Flower Pots are kiln Fired just as the bricks that the house is built with are. I'm sure they're fine. At the end of the day, fire hoods are placed on downlights that are NOT fire rated to prevent the spread of fire, the Plant Pot is used to give the Minimum clearance Manufacturers state the fitting needs to stop them from overheating, nothing else. The Pot is NOT to stop the spread of fire.

 

[martysparky]

Flower Pots are kiln Fired just as the bricks that the house is built with are. I'm sure they're fine. At the end of the day, fire hoods are placed on downlights that are NOT fire rated to prevent the spread of fire, the Plant Pot is used to give the Minimum clearance Manufacturers state the fitting needs to stop them from overheating, nothing else. The Pot is NOT to stop the spread of fire.

if its not to stop the spread of fire what is?

The building is designed without holes and given a fire rating. So, if you cut a hole and add a non fire rated light the building will then burn more quickly than without the holes.

If you add a hole between to compartments that hole is linking the compartments is it not?

If your bedroom was above the kitchen and you had a teenager come home drunk and started a fire in the kitchen would you prefer the holes not be there? would you prefer it to be treated as two different compartments.

If so, would you prefer means tested fire rated equipment in the ceiling to help prevent the roof collapsing whilst you making your escape or waiting for the fire brigade.

Or I know, lets take a chance on FLOWER POTS coz they might work.

If it is a fire safety reason to employ fire rated expandable foam in holes to seal the holes made to pass a cable fire spread is a serious matter. The people who employ you generally don't realize that holes for downlighters are a fire risk they just want what they want and employ and put there trust in you to install. They may want a cheap solution and pay less at the time but if the house burnt they would prob be on your back with vengeance .

furthermore, If the police heard you had lights and flowerpots in your roof they they' d prob be round.

simple- no hole = less fire spread
with hole = more fire spread

If debris fell on a flower pot would it smash?
If debris fell on a Fire hood would it smash? or, would it flatten over the hole?

What one would you bet your life on.

just my thoughts

 

[roukel01]

if its not to stop the spread of fire what is?

The building is designed without holes and given a fire rating. So, if you cut a hole and add a non fire rated light the building will then burn more quickly than without the holes.

If you add a hole between to compartments that hole is linking the compartments is it not?

If your bedroom was above the kitchen and you had a teenager come home drunk and started a fire in the kitchen would you prefer the holes not be there? would you prefer it to be treated as two different compartments.

If so, would you prefer means tested fire rated equipment in the ceiling to help prevent the roof collapsing whilst you making your escape or waiting for the fire brigade.

Or I know, lets take a chance on FLOWER POTS coz they might work.

If it is a fire safety reason to employ fire rated expandable foam in holes to seal the holes made to pass a cable fire spread is a serious matter. The people who employ you generally don't realize that holes for downlighters are a fire risk they just want what they want and employ and put there trust in you to install. They may want a cheap solution and pay less at the time but if the house burnt they would prob be on your back with vengeance .

furthermore, If the police heard you had lights and flowerpots in your roof they they' d prob be round.

simple- no hole = less fire spread
with hole = more fire spread

If debris fell on a flower pot would it smash?
If debris fell on a Fire hood would it smash? or, would it flatten over the hole?

What one would you bet your life on.

just my thoughts

Please read my post carefully, I said, Plantpots should b e used only for giving minimum clearance from insulation with fire rated fittings and nothing else.

Anyone daft enough to use pots with fittings that are not fire rated want their heads read, besides who the hell fits non-fire rated fittings these days?

Any debris that you are describing heavy enough and falling with enough force to smash a plant pot is going to break most things you place over a light.

 

[GaryM]

....besides who the hell fits non-fire rated fittings these days?

They still move off the shelves so plenty of people I guess.

 

[roukel01]

They still move off the shelves so plenty of people I guess.

Well they shouldn't Thats a blatent case of penny pinching.

 

[GaryM]

When installed correctly with aluminium reflector lamps (assuming LED or CFL's haven't been used) they don't pose a great danger.

 

[bugsy]

offical member!