Price check please, NI sparks in particular.

[Phil Thompson]

I have a customer who has questioned/insulted my price on completion of work plus extras.

Basically I was asked to wire an electric shower, it's for a rental upstairs flat, I suggested they add a smoke and heat detector in, the board was old bs3036 and I suggested instead of spending on an RCD protected shower board that they go for a new AMD3 board. Hager board with 7 circuits. X1m of 3 colours of 16mm tails.

Escos x3 there already,

Run for shower was almost 20m of 10mm2 T&E, Smoke run was about 17.5m.
2 lengths of 38x19 sticky back trunking used.
Also a cooker connection plate and a pvc surface box.



Extras on the job were as follows:-

Client decided to get new kitchen fitted and required cooker switch and double socket to be moved 1 metre to the left and joiner boarded the wall,
so 1x1g and 1x2g dry liners used though wall had to be tracked to allow them to fit, they supplied the socket face i supplied the cooker switch, also replaced another socket face they supplied, and a water heater switch i supplied,

supplied 1x pvc surface box to replace a dry liner that was sitting surface but unfixed to wall, and reconnected single socket.

put plug top on a fridge,

Connected oven and hob, oven flexed, hob needed 1.5m of 6.0mm t&e

Fitted 5 lights supplied by customer, plus supply 4x Bell GU10 5w lamps,

I had quoted £575-600 originally to his girlfriend and she was happy and as the cooker connection plate was done and 4 of the lights were requested I was looking to go with £600, and out of that £600 I was going to be paying £120 for an eicr for them due to it being a rental, being done by a 3rd party.

I asked for £150 for the rest of the extras, which I thought was pretty cheap.
So £750 total was asked for this evening.

On completion the client tried to say I had quoted them £275 for the original work, of the shower, smokes and consumer unit replacement, I was literally gobsmacked and they said they were thinking it would be about £450 total with the extras.

The guy literally has stated that he wants me to break down everything I did, and he will pay me a fair wage, but that he's not going to have the wool pulled over his eyes.

Though I'm starting to feel I've been set up the more I think about it.


Not sure how to proceed with this, my initial thoughts was just to say look I'll drop to £630 for everything but no eicr. As I won't need to pay that £120 out. Second thought is to just do small claims court.

However I think he's expecting me to break down all materials and labour etc and by sounds of his fair wage comments he's gonna try and reduce my labour to nothing.

Really disgusted to be honest and apologies for the long drawn out post but can't sleep as it's annoyed me that much, any advice & prices from others would be helpful, especially @Risteard if you don't mind, being in NI and able to do eicr directly I'd be interested in know your approx price and to see if I was too expensive or not.

Job layout, Consumer unit at front door, trunking up staircase to loft and through loft to bathroom at far end and shower mounted on stud wall, smoke alarm in small hall just outside bathroom and heat detector along the way between kitchen and living area.

 

[bigspark17]

No you defo need to do an EIC for a cu change!

 

[Risteard]

As for the EICR, 1 would be issued, and if and codes those would be addressed and then a new eicr given with no codes on it. Or at least no C1&2 codes on it.

EIC is for new installations or new circuits only as far as I've been instructed anyways.

An Electrical Installation Certificate is for any new electrical installation work. This isn't necessarily an entire electrical installation or new circuits, it can be minor works (although a Minor Electrical Installation Works Certificate might be more appropriate for a single circuit modified). I would issue an EIC for remedial works carried out presuming that multiple circuits were involved in the remedial works. I certainly wouldn't reissue an EICR with codes removed - the EICR they have will be one based on what I found at the time of the inspection. An EIC certifying remedial works should be all that is needed.

 

[Phil Thompson]

I will speak to the lecturer again and clarify, but he definitely stated EIC for new installations or new circuits and EICR for a board change.

As you are reporting on the condition of the installation, coding for any issues and if remedied then rectifying and reissue a clear EICR without any codes.

That was what I was also led to believe by the guy who was going to do the EICR initially, and he just does inspection & testing on a daily basis, hasn't worked the tools in years, he does it for a firm that does all the colleges in the country. Though he has pulled the use of escos between meter and CCU, stating that once the main isolator is off those are still live.

That's how he does any for the fella I used to work to before starting on my own.

But will definitely check it out further.

 

[Flanders]

As others have said you need to issue an eic for a consumer change you can not put circuit into service if there are issues with them , so for example
There is a cable hanging out of wall with live conducters exposed, you change the consumer unit and then you have effectively made that unsafe cable live and created the danger ,
You should of done a eicr first or a least some basic inspection like check bonding ,insulation resistance , cpc continuity and any damaged accessories before you change the consumer unit

 

[Risteard]

As you are reporting on the condition of the installation, coding for any issues and if remedied then rectifying and reissue a clear EICR without any codes.

This is where the issue is. If you have rectified an issue then you need to certify the work you have done (i.e. the remedial work). A Report is just that - a report on the condition of the installation and therefore will not certify the work that you have done and therefore is not the correct document for that.

So if I had an EICR from a periodic inspection of an installation (whether produced by me or someone else) and I was then asked to carry out the remedial works I would issue a certificate for the remedial works. I would not reissue an EICR with the codes removed. The certificate will confirm that the remedial works comply with BS7671 (and therefore show that these parts of the installation are now safe).

 

[Phil Thompson]

see his view when I asked the question today was this

You're requested to replace a consumer unit. In an operational domestic property, to improve safety.

You're not getting paid to come in and do an eicr first.
You are there to do the board change and then provide an eicr to state the reason for producing report as "Due to CCU being updated to current standard."
List any limitations. Which there may be in an existing property, and code any issues. Do all your dead tests and live tests. And at the same time your visual inspection. Broken screw on a socket, cracked faceplate, insufficient csa of a services earth. Code them. Then if the client wishes to have the remedial work carried out then you do an MWC, but you should redo the report as well to show it clear for whatever purpose it has been requested. Generally insurance companies.

He stated numerous times throughout the course today, you can only recommend you can't enforce. If you believe something is seriously dangerous you can only try and implore the client & report it to the HSE if they ignore your advice.

Also an EICR is not as important as an EIC, and that an EIC is for new installations or new circuits, and that you are inferring that they meet all BS7671 current standards of installation and have been inspected at all steps of the installation. Which you can't guarantee in a consumer unit change as you're only seeing connections to the equipment in the installation.
Also you should have no limitations in a new install. Which there can be in an existing building.

There's zero places on an EIC to mention any limitations, which is 1 of the reasons his explanation made sense. Along with the fact you can't state installation method meets BS7671 if you couldn't inspect it along the way.

And without damaging the fabric of the installation or removing kitchen units or appliances which can be on many limitations you cannot prove they do.
You can only report on the condition of the installation based on test results on the day and a visual inspection and code any issues if there are any.

I'm lost now lol as his explanation did make sense if you can follow my poor description of what he said.

But basically he said as you are not altering any circuits in the installation it wasn't an EIC, and that effectively a CCU was equipment but as it was such a major piece of equipment was not suitable for a MWC, and therefore you do an EICR.

 

[Phil Thompson]

see his view when I asked the question today was this

You're requested to replace a consumer unit. In an operational domestic property, to improve safety.

You're not getting paid to come in and do an eicr first.
You do the board change and an eicr to state the reason for producing report as "Due to CCU being updated to current standard."
List any limitations. Which there may be in an existing property, and code any issues. Do all your dead tests and live tests. And at the same time your visual inspection. Broken screw on a socket, cracked faceplate, insufficient csa of a services earth. Code them. Then if the client wishes to have the remedial work carried out then you do an MWC, but you should redo the report as well to show it clear for whatever purpose it has been requested. Generally insurance companies.

He stated numerous times throughout the course today, you can only recommend you can't enforce. If you believe something is seriously dangerous you can only try and implore the client & report it to the HSE if they ignore your advice.

Also an EICR is not as important as an EIC, and that an EIC is for new installations or new circuits, and that you are inferring that they meet all BS7671 current standards of installation and have been inspected at all steps of the installation. Which you can't guarantee in a consumer unit change as you're only seeing connections to the equipment in the installation.
Also you should have no limitations in a new install. Which there can be in an existing building.

There's zero places on an EIC to mention any limitations, which is 1 of the reasons his explanation made sense. Along with the fact you can't state installation method meets BS7671 if you couldn't inspect it along the way.

And without damaging the fabric of the installation or removing kitchen units or appliances which can be on many limitations you cannot prove they do.
You can only report on the condition of the installation based on test results on the day and a visual inspection and code any issues if there are any.

I'm lost now lol as his explanation did make sense if you can follow my poor description of what he said.

 

[Phil Thompson]

Also his explanation was that the tick list and test results would certify the change of CCU.

 

[Phil Thompson]

But hey. I'm only getting into this as I'm now working on my own and want to do it right. Hence doing the initial verification course and now the periodic. So am open for any advice. Hence why I checked with the tutor today and will have him double check.

As I will be using the reasons given here to do so lol

 

[Risteard]

OK, didn't realise we were talking about the replacement of a DB. I thought you were referring to remedial works to an installation.

For the replacement of a DB you must issue an EIC. This certificate in no way relates to the existing installation (except for the comments on existing installation section). Your EIC solely relates to the replacement of the DB. You are verifying that ADS will operate for the circuits you are connecting (to ensure that your DB installation is safe) but you are not certifying the existing installation. You won't be verifying cables being installed in prescribed zones, etc. unless you have installed any cables. So this would be N/A. Your schedule of inspections is again only relating to your installation of the DB as confirmed by your extent of works section.

 

[Phil Thompson]

Thanks for that Risteard, I assume that's how niceic require it to be done?

Though I was thinking of doing stroma if I do join a CPS but will decide later in the year or during 2018 what way to go.

 

[123]

What would Stroma do for you in Northern Ireland? Napit used to be required for B&Q Kitchen's, but pretty sure that's NICEIC now. AFAIK Ikea also requires NICEIC.

NICEIC Approved Contractor is the main one, it'll allow you to undertake work for Councils and the Housing Executive.

There is ECA and JIB but this are for bigger firms than one man bands.

 

[Phil Thompson]

So are there actually any benefits from being in Niceic?

Is there actually any benefits for being in a cps in NI? Apart from being eligible to do that stuff mentioned above if in the niceic?

 

[123]

Any of the part p crowd like Stroma, Napit etc etc is of no use at all.

The only one I'd consider looking at is NICEIC Approved Contractor. I'm not with them, but in Northern Ireland for a one man band it's either them or none.
If no one is specifying it, and you're not losing any work from not being registered I wouldn't bother.

I lose about 2-3 small extensions a year and the odd entertainment licence (basically an EICR for a Pub)

 

[Phil Thompson]

So only need stroma if we end up getting part p then?

Are the extensions and entertainment licence jobs only accepting Niceic?

Is it the same on the mainland? Or do we just get ridden by the niceic monopoly?

Have you been asked to join this SparkSafe thing the ETT are trying to push?

 

[Billsays]

But hey. I'm only getting into this as I'm now working on my own and want to do it right. Hence doing the initial verification course and now the periodic. So am open for any advice. Hence why I checked with the tutor today and will have him double check.

As I will be using the reasons given here to do so lol

Phil I'm afraid your tutor is mistaken. If you change the ccu you must issue an EIC...... Remember "those that can, do. And those that can't, teach"

And Risteards opinion that it only covers the ccu is also mistaken. I've said before on another thread once you have disconnected the final circuits from the supply, you have to ensure they are safe before re-energising them. You can only do that if you know ADS will work, the insulation is up to scratch and there are no mechanical defects likely to give rise to danger. So you're stuck with having to do a full test and all that entails, or you would be working outside the scope of BS7671.
This isn't just my opinion, (and we changed over 500 ccus last year on K&B refurbs) it's the view of our NIC assessor. New fuseboard. Full test.

 

[Risteard]

I didn't suggest that you don't need to verify that ADS will operate. I just pointed out that you are only certifying the replacement DB and not the existing installation. That is a fact.

 

[Phil Thompson]

Any of the part p crowd like Stroma, Napit etc etc is of no use at all.

The only one I'd consider looking at is NICEIC Approved Contractor. I'm not with them, but in Northern Ireland for a one man band it's either them or none.
If no one is specifying it, and you're not losing any work from not being registered I wouldn't bother.

I lose about 2-3 small extensions a year and the odd entertainment licence (basically an EICR for a Pub)

Phil I'm afraid your tutor is mistaken. If you change the ccu you must issue an EIC...... Remember "those that can, do. And those that can't, teach"

And Risteards opinion that it only covers the ccu is also mistaken. I've said before on another thread once you have disconnected the final circuits from the supply, you have to ensure they are safe before re-energising them. You can only do that if you know ADS will work, the insulation is up to scratch and there are no mechanical defects likely to give rise to danger. So you're stuck with having to do a full test and all that entails, or you would be working outside the scope of BS7671.
This isn't just my opinion, (and we changed over 500 ccus last year on K&B refurbs) it's the view of our NIC assessor. New fuseboard. Full test.

Basically he was saying same as you in regards to what was to be done, full test etc, only he said eicr document. The niceic inspector used to teach there too, so they are friends, so he will likely refer it to him. When I put it to him.

His method is also possibly his interpretation, as when he explained it, it made logical sense.
As does yours, only document difference.

But he's only young as tutors go, when I served my time the tutors were all about 50, this guys about 37, and has been there for 12 years.

Though he does seem to have an interest in stuff in regards to the job on the ground. Asking questions about various things, so willing to learn and was quizing one of the lads who sat his am2 just before the second class. So will want to check it out when mentioned to him.

But it's good that I brought it up as that was answered to the class not just myself.

 

[Phil Thompson]

I didn't suggest that you don't need to verify that ADS will operate. I just pointed out that you are only certifying the replacement DB and not the existing installation. That is a fact.

So if I for example did a kitchen rewire of cooker, a couple of radials, a new ring and upgraded earth to water mains, everything else stayed the same, but full board was changed.

What would be the procedure in that situation?

 

[Phil Thompson]

@Billsays its funny you posted that saying, I said that very thing on Friday as a joke with the others in the class lol

Though in his defence, he seems keen to assist with anything asked of him, the guys who taught me weren't really approachable. But this guy seems like he actually has a passion for the trade. Unlike my ones who where failed or knackered and that was all they could find to pay bills lol or at least that was the impression they gave lol

 

[Richard Burns]

The paperwork situation is really quite clear cut.
An EICR is a Report on the safety for continued use of an existing installation and involves no installation work.
An EIC (or MEIWC) is a Certificate confirming by your signature that work done on the installation is in compliance with the wiring regulations.

If any installation work is done then an installation certificate (minor or not) must be provided (barring maintenance work that can have a certificate if required).
In the case of a consumer unit change this is definitely installation work and requires an installation certificate. Because you are connecting existing circuits to this board you need to ensure that it is safe to connect these circuits which means they will need to be inspected and tested to the extent necessary to ensure this safety. This could be a full EICR or could be just the completion of the inspections and test results for the EIC you are providing.
In your example in #44 you would obviously inspect and test for the full initial verification the circuits you have rewired and for the consumer unit. Any other circuits would only need inspection and testing to ensure safety of reconnection.
All these results can be included on the EIC.