pub/resturant dimming advice

[Robertbaker63]

Hi

I'm Rewiring a pub/resturant complex and the owner would like to have dimmable led lighting thoughout inside

it'll be a mixture of the jcc led 7's tiltable and tracklighting with pendants with either an 8w or 11w dimmable led bulb in hovering over the tables

the'll be around 140 lights in total and all lights will be switched from behind the bar

there will also be ground uplights outside, i have pulled out a 1.5mm 2 core armoured to supply some walk over uplights leading up to the entrance ( about a 25m run) how many can i safely put on this if i use an led uplight on a 6 or 10 amp rcbo?

there will be car park lights and driveway lights, i have run a 2.5mm armoured for these, how many can i safely put on without tripping an rcbo, the first light is a run of 30m aromoured, if i were to carry on all the way to the entrance it would be an 80m run to the last light


how many should i allow on each dimmer, i'm presuming about 6-8?

should i go for one bank of 24 grid dimmers or should i go for 6 banks of 4?


many thanks, sorry about my inexperiance with led lighting, whenever i've installed in a domestic install i've stuck to 10 jcc led on a circuit max

 

[mairtin]

...and if you had a few extra $$ to spend put in a line of contactors for each table and turn them on and off as neaded

 

[back_ache]

In my experience you should use an architectural dimming system like the tiger mentioned earlier by mod, off the top of my head.

* From a reliabilty point of view they are designed for 24*7 operation.
* They are extensable so should you need to control lights that need a signal (such as DSI, 0-10 or even DMX) rather that waveform modification you can do so (this is espically important with LEDs as modifiyed the mains power isn't a great way to dim them)
* From an "artistic" point of view, they can spend some time working of the various "looks" and know it'll be the same every night when they press the button (as opposed to staff doing as they feel)
* On failure, a DMX dimmer will either put all the channels to zero, hold the settings based on the last command or some really random stuff.
* architecural dimmers can have safety features such as a dry contact you can wire to the fire alarm that can used to bring all the lights to full brightness (or whatever)

Though wireless is nice, don't trust a "shared medium" use wires for the interconnects and a least one wired button panel.

Though computer intergration is also nice. make sure its an addition, not the only way.

 

[Rockingit]

Boys, boys..... there's so many half truths and myths in this thread with regards to DMX that I don't even know where to begin. At some point I'll actually get around to posting up the article on DMX which I've been writing for the forum over the last few months, but until I do.......

DMX is good for led control, heavy dimming and 101 other things irrelevant to this thread.

The OP asked about dimming for a zoned led system for ambient light in a pub. AKA an architectural lighting system, in which case that's exactly what's required and also needs to be kept very very simple in its operation and upkeep. Others have made some suggestions to manufacturers and these are all good. How those systems actually work is almost irrelevant (but many of them, I'd bet, are based on DMX internally). You don't need concert rigs, you don't need Dave's Dodgy Disco rig.

Ring up your wholesalers, tell them you're looking at an architectural lighting install and have them get the relevant manufacturers sales team come and inspect and quote. With any luck you'll end up more in profit and with some free training rather than running yourself ragged with half-baked solutions.

 

[shocking_eg]

Boys, boys..... there's so many half truths and myths in this thread with regards to DMX that I don't even know where to begin. At some point I'll actually get around to posting up the article on DMX which I've been writing for the forum over the last few months, but until I do.......

DMX is good for led control, heavy dimming and 101 other things irrelevant to this thread.

The OP asked about dimming for a zoned led system for ambient light in a pub. AKA an architectural lighting system, in which case that's exactly what's required and also needs to be kept very very simple in its operation and upkeep. Others have made some suggestions to manufacturers and these are all good. How those systems actually work is almost irrelevant (but many of them, I'd bet, are based on DMX internally). You don't need concert rigs, you don't need Dave's Dodgy Disco rig.

Ring up your wholesalers, tell them you're looking at an architectural lighting install and have them get the relevant manufacturers sales team come and inspect and quote. With any luck you'll end up more in profit and with some free training rather than running yourself ragged with half-baked solutions.

Perfect !

 

[back_ache]

+1 for getting a specialist in

I think we have to be clear what an architectural lighting system is.

Firstly, it is about lighting in and around a building rather an entertainment context

Secondly it is designed for 24*7*365 unattended operation and it's cooling needs and without unreliable components such as fans, it is not the same a theatrical dimmer that has just been used for the task!

The only load controller I would want to rely on for unattended 24*7*365 is one that has been designed from the ground-up to do so and from a company with a long pedigree in it.

DMX is a great protocol but you have to understand its limitations which brings us back to the beginning, a specialist is needed.

Good luck

 

[Rockingit]

DMX is a great protocol but you have to understand its limitations which brings us back to the beginning, a specialist is needed.

This thread isn't about DMX though. If it were, then it would very quickly be seen that "DMX" - remember it's a protocol, NOT a physical assembly of parts - would eat this, burp loudly and ask for more. The limitations that DMX has just don't apply to these kind of discussions.

I think I need to pull my finger out and publish my article before more BS gets spouted about.

 

[back_ache]

This thread, is about what is a suitable for dimming lighting in an architectural situation, and the DMX thing came in as a discussion of what is or is not suitable, so it's not totally off-topic.

If we discuss DMX as a protocol, there is a couple of things that need to be understood,

It has no error checking, so if the signal gets corrupted the dimmers of whatever will still try to action what it thinks it is being told to do.

Though its based on the industrial protocol RS485, it looses a lot of the ruggedness because it is very fast (for a RS485 bus) which can make it more vulnerable to interference it may induct (even though its a balanced line inside a shielded cable).

If the lighting if just decorative none of this matters, but if whether it is working properly or not is a matter of safety, the question has to be asked if it is right for the job.

DMX512 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Rockingit]

This thread, is about what is a suitable for dimming lighting in an architectural situation, and the DMX thing came in as a discussion of what is or is not suitable, so it's not totally off-topic.

If we discuss DMX as a protocol, there is a couple of things that need to be understood,

It has no error checking, so if the signal gets corrupted the dimmers of whatever will still try to action what it thinks it is being told to do.

Though its based on the industrial protocol RS485, it looses a lot of the ruggedness because it is very fast (for a RS485 bus) which can make it more vulnerable to interference it may induct (even though its a balanced line inside a shielded cable).

If the lighting if just decorative none of this matters, but if whether it is working properly or not is a matter of safety, the question has to be asked if it is right for the job.

DMX512 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ahhh....yes.....the wonders of wiki at it again. Although in fairness to that article if you strip out all the geek guff it's not too bad.

DMX is clearly so bad and cantankerous that you couldn't possibly ever dream of using it for something as mission critical as an olympic stadium opening ceremony in front of x billion people.

FFS, when you actually know something then come back and I'll show you around one of my little 20 universe touring shows - I've been using DMX for over three decades on every continent on this planet (except the cold one at the bottom).

 

[back_ache]

I'd love to see one of your touring shows, my theatrical stuff has at the most used three universes.

DMX only allows one device to be in control sending out the signal which is fine when you have one person running the show, and that limitations can be worked around with other technology like backup desks, Ethernet, fiber-optics etc.

In a simpler environment, when the desk fails through fault or stupidity, the pub could be plunged into darkness, there are workarounds such as dimmers that hold their last setting on failure, but this does need to be kept in mind when designing around DMX.

Its not that bad or cantankerous, its just like everything, you have to know its limitations.