rcd on commercial

[Darkwood]

Rcd's give user protection and if ommited through the instructed person clause then i believe you still would have to show good reasoning (if the unthinkable happened) in a court as to why rcd protection hadn't been provided, yes you have an exemption but in using it i expect they would require you to give good argument other than saving a few quid on the quote.

Ive only ever ommited once since the reg' was introduced and this was for Lab - bench sockets where they were testing electronic equipment and rcd's would be a nuisance if installed, the lab guys were skilled and instructed thus no issue there for me.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Darkwood.
It is a statutory requirement (unlike the requirements of BS7671) that any worker whether they be a cleaner or an electrician, should be so experienced, qualified or under such supervision that they would satisfy the BS7671 definition of a skilled or instructed person.
If that cleaner or electrician does not satisfy the BS7671 definition of a skilled or instructed person, the employer will be committing a criminal act by allowing them to work with electricity, even if that work only involves plugging in a hoover.
A skilled or instructed person does not have to be supervised when using socket-outlets, in fact the cleaner would be considered as someone who could do the supervision.

You may believe that the cleaner is not a skilled or instructed person.
However BS7671 disagrees.

It does seem yo me, to be a very common misconception that a skilled person has to be a qualified electrician, and an instructed person has to be an electrical Apprentice.
The fact is, a skilled person can be anyone with sufficient experience or training, to know that they should not plug in a hoover with a damaged lead.
An instructed person can be someone with access to a skilled person via a telephone.

 

[telectrix]

spot on there , spin. put in a clear , concise, way.

 

[Darkwood]

Im aware that really anyone can be classed as a instructed person but my grey area is employee's and sub contractors ... if the company has within its workforce instructed peple and has no rcd protection on its sockets then thats fine but some cleaners are sub-contractors and thus not directly employed by the company... so the company would require to have their own instructed person available, it may have been a loophole and may have sinced been closed but i do recall this once been subject to a lengthy debate, thats probably why i think on that train of thought.

My main point is you shouldn't be using this clause to give cheaper quotes the rcd ommitance should have a viable reasoning in the first place.

 

[electric will]

I totally agree with the above, you can't hide behind this skilled persons stuff for not fitting rcds, how can you be sure it's always going to be a skilled (what ever this means) person using sockets? Also the rule of cables buried at less than 50mm applies, what about the company handyman just putting a few fixings up!

 

[electric will]

A kitchen fitted can be classed as a skilled person but, does he know about our safe zones?

 

[MDJ]

Depends on whether he has left his little brain at the Pub I suppose hehe

 

[Darkwood]

Using the skilled or instructed person clause over-rules the <50mm rule too, and you dont require a skilled person just an instructed one, so really anyone in employment can be described as instructed if you so choose to make them, but as spin points out the instructed person would always be able to talk to a skilled person even if over the phone.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

To my mind, loop holes and clauses are used all the time to provide lower quotes.
My opinion, is that Regulations 314.1/2 do not allow the use of an RCD to protect multiple circuits.
Yet we all install dual RCD boards and get away with it because minimizinf the inconvenience in the event of a fault is so vague.

It's not a question of hiding behind anything.
The requirements state that RCD protection is required for socket-outlets for use by ordinary persons, and intended for general use.
The requirement is worded in such a manner, to specifically allow places of work to be exempted.
It was considered that the cost to industry the commercial sector, etc. would be too high if all sockt-outlets were required to be provided with RCD protection.

Yes Regulations are not retrospective, however the majority of institutions such as insurance companies don't care.
If the current edition of the Regulations require such and such, someone will have to have a very good reason for not providing that such and such.
Insurance companies are not going to consider that the cost of upgrading an installation may run into the thousands, when their liabillities may run into the millions.
What would it matter to them if the cost did run into thousands, it's not their money that would be spent, although it would be their money if a claim had to be met. A claim that could well be avoided if the neccessary work to upgrade the installation is conducted.

 

[electric will]

Ok, so can you use the skilled persons thing to not to use rcd's at all?

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Not for a location containing a bath or shower, for mobile equipment used outdoors or for certain special installations, such as agricultural/horticultural installations.

 

[Darkwood]

I set an example earlier about a lab i wired, the nature of their work meant rcd protection wouldn't be an option, if you feel you could successfully argue your case in court as to why you didnt provide rcd protection if the worse happened then you can say that you used the exemption correctly in my mind, and yes i too have seen the insurance sector now having a greater influence over premises not upto 17th regs...which is always good for business

 

[Deleted member 26818]

The thing about the court case, is that it wouldn't necessarilly be the electrician explaining their actions.
The employer would first have to explain why they were allowing non-skilled or non-instructed persons to work in circumstances where electricity could present a danger.
If the employer's excuse was that the electrician said such and such, then yes the electrician would have some explaining to do.

 

[electric will]

I'm not convinced about this but I'm really appreaceating your opinions. Thanks spin

 

[peter22]

go back to college and learn something else. or put an rcd in. I hear they looking for burger flippers in mc donalds.