Ring and Radial Sockets

[RomRobi]

Sometime ago I had my 15yr old, wanting to know the advantages and disadvantages of a ring to a radial sockets, and all I could think of was, you dont have to worry about volt drop in a ring and how much costly it could be, then I realised :banghead: I had been in the trade for while and felt like a mug I can't even managed enough solid reasons. I would appreciate any more contribution so I can go back and tell him, with head high, chest busting and he thinks old man is a genius.:smilewinkgrin:

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Quite right too 54! I have heard this one before n all (abandoning rfc`s that is) The way i see it is the more options we have the better.....as long as compliance is met together with quality of workmanship etc....then as far as i am concerned..jobs a good un. Also in reply to spins last post....would it not be prudent to ask the client as to what type/size of current using equipment that they intend to use on a final circuit (ring or radial)? Would this not be part of the design stage? You can then design accordingly using the information gained from the client............

 

[Engineer54]

Quite right too 54! I have heard this one before n all (abandoning rfc`s that is) The way i see it is the more options we have the better.....as long as compliance is met together with quality of workmanship etc....then as far as i am concerned..jobs a good un. Also in reply to spins last post....would it not be prudent to ask the client as to what type/size of current using equipment that they intend to use on a final circuit (ring or radial)? Would this not be part of the design stage? You can then design accordingly using the information gained from the client............

It would indeed form part of the design of any circuit or installation. If anything, you would not only be considering the present requirements, but also those of the future too....

 

[platty1005]

Engineer 54 Thanks for the comments but RFC's are old hat 2 x 32A RFC one up one down no problem for those of us that know how . However modern installations lots of Kitchen appliances, computers sat tv etc etc, modern thinking more radials on RCBO's = less hassle.
But I do agree sod the europeans they don't know how to wire or test RFC's anyway.
Consider 1 RFC 32amp 20m out 20m back
or 2 x radial 20A out and another 20m out
40A max load my opinion no contest

 

[GLENNSPARK]

It would indeed form part of the design of any circuit or installation. If anything, you would not only considering the present requirements, but also those of the future too....

Yep. Future proofing should ALWAYS form part of a design consultation with a client........

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Engineer 54 Thanks for the comments but RFC's are old hat 2 x 32A RFC one up one down no problem for those of us that know how . However modern installations lots of Kitchen appliances, computers sat tv etc etc, modern thinking more radials on RCBO's = less hassle.
But I do agree sod the europeans they don't know how to wire or test RFC's anyway.

O K. Sometimes its better to wire a kitchen in a 4mm radial but i will say it again: Its the scenario that dictates how to wire it and the method used. Nod soddin europe..........

 

[RomRobi]

I personally prefer the ring to the radials for some of the good reasons mentioned earlier, and as someone mentioned earlier, a good design and understanding of the ring is what is required. One problem I do have is running a dedicated ring for the kitchen with posible 4 sockets and about 6 spurs fed from a multi grid switch panel. How do we balance the load in this situation.

 

[Engineer54]

Engineer 54 Thanks for the comments but RFC's are old hat 2 x 32A RFC one up one down no problem for those of us that know how . However modern installations lots of Kitchen appliances, computers sat tv etc etc, modern thinking more radials on RCBO's = less hassle.
But I do agree sod the europeans they don't know how to wire or test RFC's anyway.

Absolute Rubbish!! There is nothing ''old hat'' about FRC's, radials are a dammed sight older than them too...lol!!! Modern thinking then = laziness!!

So, tell me how are radials ALWAYS going to be a better design than an FRC?? Then explain/substantiate the costings in favour of an ALL radial socket outlet installation?? Or better still explain it all to your prospective clients why you are more expensive than the other electricians.....lol!!!

 

[GLENNSPARK]

I personally prefer the ring to the radials for some of the good reasons mentioned earlier, and as someone mentioned earlier, a good design and understanding of the ring is what is required. One problem I do have is running a dedicated ring for the kitchen with posible 4 sockets and about 6 spurs fed from a multi grid switch panel. How do we balance the load in this situation.

In this scenario then a radial may be the better option (and i stress the word option) as you should have several avenues that you can go down: rings AND radials.........

 

[platty1005]

Consider all domestic sockets now RCD protected - BS 7671 1 fault everything on the RCD goes off much better to have fewer sockets on more radials on RCBO's

PS Don't want to get into a bun fight each to his own

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Whats wrong with putting rings on rcbo`s ?

 

[platty1005]

absolutely nothing
Ring VS radial
Cable length 2 x radial can actually be shorter
MCB 2 for 2 x radial and 1 for RFC
so extra £7 so what
Testing easier
Additons/spurs easier
Risk of DIY C*** ups drastically reduced

 

[MarkieSparkie]

Sometime ago I had my 15yr old, wanting to know the advantages and disadvantages of a ring to a radial sockets, and all I could think of was, you dont have to worry about volt drop in a ring and how much costly it could be, then I realised :banghead: I had been in the trade for while and felt like a mug I can't even managed enough solid reasons. I would appreciate any more contribution so I can go back and tell him, with head high, chest busting and he thinks old man is a genius.:smilewinkgrin:

Note:- In the following list of advantages and disadvantages some points are followed by a question mark because both camps like to show their best case, but it depends what is compared with what.
The Ring Final Circuit Camp argue 32A, 2.5 T+E, Ring Final Circuit versus 32A, 4 T+E, Radial Final Circuit. Whereas the Radial Final Circuit Camp argue 20A, 2.5 T+E Radial Final Circuit versus 32A, 2.5 T+E, Ring Final Circuit.

Advantages of the Ring Final Circuit:
1) It reduces the amount of copper used in an installation?
2) It reduces the number of circuit protective devices
3) It helps to reduce voltage drop
4) It has proved its value over the last 60 years
5) It promotes sustainability in design
6) It is good for the Environment?

The disadvantages of Ring circuits are numerous:
1) Compliance with Regulation 433-02-04
2) Not understood – lack of training of electricians from other countries
3) Susceptible to fault conditions
4) Testing and fault finding is very time consuming and costly
5) Fault conditions are not apparent when in use
6) Use more cable and take longer to install compared to 20A Radials – waste of resources?
7) Generally not cost effective compared to 20A Radials

Advantages of Radial circuits:
1) Greater flexibility
2) Less cable would be needed
3) Less time to install
4) Lower installation cost?
5) Less drain on the world’s resources of copper?
6) The problems created by Regulation 433-02-04 – distributing load evenly in a ring circuit (that nobody takes any notice of) would disappear thus reducing the exposure of the contractor to a breach of regulation claim.
7) Considerably less time required for inspection and testing.
8) Less likelihood of installation faults
9) Any breaks or loose connections will be readily identified when testing.

Disadvantage of Radial circuits
1) More circuits required
2) Larger distribution boards
3) More circuit breakers required

 

[Engineer54]

Not trying to get into a bun fight, i just get annoyed at the amount of young sparks that condemn the FRC with no valid reason apart from the radial is easier to install and test than a FRC. That is not a valid reason as far as i'm conserned.

Look, if you can argue a case for the extra expense and larger cables, bigger CU, and time, your all Radial installation will cost your client, then fair do's go, ...for it!!

One more thing, on a 4mm radial, there is no chance of a spur, accessories only have 10mm cable termination facility these days, (it used to be 12mm) ....unless of course you force a 2.5mm into the accessory terminals...

 

[platty1005]

engineer 54 I have been a spark for over 35 years I am not advising 4.00mm radials I am saying more 20A radials in 2.5mm is the future
Easy to install
Easy to extend
Easy to test
less hassle if there is a fault

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Note:- In the following list of advantages and disadvantages some points are followed by a question mark because both camps like to show their best case, but it depends what is compared with what.
The Ring Final Circuit Camp argue 32A, 2.5 T+E, Ring Final Circuit versus 32A, 4 T+E, Radial Final Circuit. Whereas the Radial Final Circuit Camp argue 20A, 2.5 T+E Radial Final Circuit versus 32A, 2.5 T+E, Ring Final Circuit.

Advantages of the Ring Final Circuit:
1) It reduces the amount of copper used in an installation?
2) It reduces the number of circuit protective devices
3) It helps to reduce voltage drop
4) It has proved its value over the last 60 years
5) It promotes sustainability in design
6) It is good for the Environment?

The disadvantages of Ring circuits are numerous:
1) Compliance with Regulation 433-02-04
2) Not understood – lack of training of electricians from other countries
3) Susceptible to fault conditions
4) Testing and fault finding is very time consuming and costly
5) Fault conditions are not apparent when in use
6) Use more cable and take longer to install compared to 20A Radials – waste of resources?
7) Generally not cost effective compared to 20A Radials

Advantages of Radial circuits:
1) Greater flexibility
2) Less cable would be needed
3) Less time to install
4) Lower installation cost?
5) Less drain on the world’s resources of copper?
6) The problems created by Regulation 433-02-04 – distributing load evenly in a ring circuit (that nobody takes any notice of) would disappear thus reducing the exposure of the contractor to a breach of regulation claim.
7) Considerably less time required for inspection and testing.
8) Less likelihood of installation faults
9) Any breaks or loose connections will be readily identified when testing.

Disadvantage of Radial circuits
1) More circuits required
2) Larger distribution boards
3) More circuit breakers required

And that about sums it up doesn`t it? Both have advantages and disadvantages so why would the IET ditch rings?.........