Save our trade! | Page 7 | on ElectriciansForums

Discuss Save our trade! in the UK Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

D Skelton

-
Mentor
Nearly Esteemed
Arms
Joined
Nov 24, 2010
Messages
4,127
Reaction score
3,602
Location
Milton Keynes
Sick of 5WWs? Sick of scam schemes? Sick of laughable training providers?

We as fully qualified electricians deserve better. The public deserve better. Get on here, start hitting the like button, share share share and spead the word guys!!!

We are boycotting the schemes, they can shove their ÂŁ500 assessment fees where the sun don't shine! We are the industry, not them, so there's absolutely no need to let these parasitic organisations run around acting on our behalf!

Save our trade!!!

https://www.facebook.com/ukelectricians
 
I've worked on some big, confidential jobs that make domestic sparking look like wiring a dolls house but I am not allowed to work on domestic properties unless I'm registered or inform the local building control! But some electrical trainee can come in and cause absolute carnage but get away with it because he pays "protection money" to the scams so they leave him alone because he's a cash cow!!!!! Let's make a stand people and start an e petition for changes sooner rather than later!!
 
Quite right too!
being fully qualified and working on a massive installation doesn't automatically mean you know what you are doing in a house, in just the same way that being fully qualified and experienced in domestic work says nothing about how I would fair in the world of heavy industry.
 
Quite right too!
being fully qualified and working on a massive installation doesn't automatically mean you know what you are doing in a house, in just the same way that being fully qualified and experienced in domestic work says nothing about how I would fair in the world of heavy industry.

I don't agree. Personally, I believe you're either an electrician or you're not.

If you can wire a factory, you can wire a house. You may not make a pretty job of it, you may have never pulled up a floorboard in your life, you may have never cored a 5" hole for an extractor fan and you may have never slung easi-fill in chases, but, your wiring will be safe.

If every electrician was taught to a certain high standard and gained a broad range of necessary skills across all sectors, coupled with experience, there'd be no need for this odd distinction between a domestic and a commercial spark. A spark would be a spark, that's all.

I've a rather broad range of experience to be honest, and I don't see any type of wiring being harder than another (broadly speaking of course). Yes each sector has its own challenges, but they don't tend to be wiring related. Design, install, inspect and test is the same process for a house as it is a shop or an oil refinery.

That's my ideal world anyway.
 
I don't agree. Personally, I believe you're either an electrician or you're not.

If you can wire a factory, you can wire a house. You may not make a pretty job of it, you may have never pulled up a floorboard in your life, you may have never cored a 5" hole for an extractor fan and you may have never slung easi-fill in chases, but, your wiring will be safe.

If every electrician was taught to a certain high standard and gained a broad range of necessary skills across all sectors, coupled with experience, there'd be no need for this odd distinction between a domestic and a commercial spark. A spark would be a spark, that's all.

I've a rather broad range of experience to be honest, and I don't see any type of wiring being harder than another (broadly speaking of course). Yes each sector has its own challenges, but they don't tend to be wiring related. Design, install, inspect and test is the same process for a house as it is a shop or an oil refinery.

That's my ideal world anyway.


Though i fully agree with the sentiment behind your above post, as that's how it used to be, but that last point you make can be far and above anything that is related to say C&G 2394/95 when it comes to industrial or large commercial projects. I'd go as far as saying that the vast majority of electricians would never have seen or heard of some of the test equipment used in these areas, let alone would know how to use or operate them...
 
Though i fully agree with the sentiment behind your above post, as that's how it used to be, but that last point you make can be far and above anything that is related to say C&G 2394/95 when it comes to industrial or large commercial projects. I'd go as far as saying that the vast majority of electricians would never have seen or heard of some of the test equipment used in these areas, let alone would know how to use or operate them...

I get what you're saying, but my point was that the process is the same. Granted the equipment used may be different, but an R1+R2 is the same in a house as it is anywhere else if you get what I mean.

Granted there will always be areas of specialisation, whether that be domestic automated lighting systems, industrial process control or high voltage switchgear, but it is my firm belief that every spark should be given a good, rounded education, making it easy for any one of us to specialise in one or more fields outside the scope of general installation should we so choose.

Like I said earlier Eng, I refuse to recognise a 'domestic' electrician. Similarly, if a spark with mainly industrial experience came to me and said "how do I wire a house", I'd have serious questions about their competence in general.
 
My pet hate subject of putting yourself in a wee box and not coming out of it!
I too refuse to recognise the various guises of electrician.
you are either one or you are not.
the reason we were top of the tradesman heap was due to the wide scope we dealt with on an everyday basis.
now you get sparkies that can't handle three phase and the flip side of that ones that can't lift a floor board. Wtf?
most if not all electrical work has elements that are transferrable to other areas in my book
the wider your areas of work the more employable you are IMO
i for one wouldn't employ someone who could metal munch for Britain but couldn't wire a house without destroying it
what do you do with them when you have no metal munch work on,get them to cut your grass?
i don't think so.
also the use of "mates" is a bit worrying
the use of them in Scotland isn't so widespread so I might be wrong
but a sparkies labourer to me got you stuff from the container and gave you a hand to pull cables and tidy up and the like.
he didn't get involved in terminating or containment and the like and passing himself off as a "sparky lite"
sunday morning rant over!
 
"Domestic Electrician/installer" even the title makes me want to spew lol. A spark who served a 4/5 year apprenticeship with the required C&G college qualifications finished off with AM2 KNOWS how to wire/rewire a house and be safe while doing so. I would not think a domestic installer would get very far on an industrial site with anything much above mates/apprentice work........

Please understand I am talking about domestic installers who never did get to do a full apprenticeship. I am not belittling them it is just a simple fact that those of us who were "lucky" enough to complete a full apprenticeship did get a good grounding in all aspects of the electrical trade.
I also acknowledge that someone who is a specialist house basher will run rings round me all day every day when it comes to domestic stuff but I do not include short course "installers" in that category. Each to there own ect ect but like said at least a full apprenticeship gave you an all round grounding in all aspects of the trade......maybe I was just lucky to be with a company where we got to do everything from domestic through to industrial, we just went from spark to spark one job to the next until it was believed that we had a good grasp on what we had been taught.
 
I get what you're saying, but my point was that the process is the same. Granted the equipment used may be different, but an R1+R2 is the same in a house as it is anywhere else if you get what I mean.

Granted there will always be areas of specialisation, whether that be domestic automated lighting systems, industrial process control or high voltage switchgear, but it is my firm belief that every spark should be given a good, rounded education, making it easy for any one of us to specialise in one or more fields outside the scope of general installation should we so choose.

Like I said earlier Eng, I refuse to recognise a 'domestic' electrician. Similarly, if a spark with mainly industrial experience came to me and said "how do I wire a house", I'd have serious questions about their competence in general.

My point exactly, when i was in training, we (and i mean apprentices accross the board working for the medium sized to the big name electrical contractors) were given a well rounded education as well as the opportunity of mastering the hands-on skills required. These days it seems that C&G's as well as the colleges that are running the courses, primarily revolve around domestic installations. Most of what i would have called ''core'' attributes of being/becoming an qualified electrician have been either taken out of the syllabus completely, or have been reduced to just a brief mention.
 
My point exactly, when i was in training, we (and i mean apprentices accross the board working for the medium sized to the big name electrical contractors) were given a well rounded education as well as the opportunity of mastering the hands-on skills required. These days it seems that C&G's as well as the colleges that are running the courses, primarily revolve around domestic installations. Most of what i would have called ''core'' attributes of being/becoming an qualified electrician have been either taken out of the syllabus completely, or have been reduced to just a brief mention.

It's definitely heading that way I agree, but we must be careful not to tar the full core quals with the same brush as the 5 day whizz kid courses. When I was at college, and we're only talking a few years ago, I was working with SWA and mineral cable within the first few weeks and were taught three phase theory from day one. Motors and their control were in year two along with advanced maths and theory continuing into year three. Now I had by no means a perfect education. In fact, with the benefit of hindsight the tutors I had in year two specifically should not have been allowed anywhere near a FE college! They were bloody useless, and I was extremely lucky to have a third year tutor who was outstanding, and managed to re-teach us properly, a lot of what we had been taught wrong in our second year. That said, I don't feel that the non domestic stuff was reduced to a mere 'brief mention'. In fact, I don't feel that my course was domestically orientated at all.

My personal experiences aside however, the knowledge learners need to be decent, all-round sparks is all there in the current syllabus. I genuinely believe that the reason for such a large amount of people leaving FE colleges nowadays with an electrical qual in hand but with very little knowledge has not very much to do with the actual content of the course, but instead is mainly down to three other things:

1. There are in my experience an enormous amount of clueless tutors out there! I've both used the services of, and provided services to four state funded colleges local to me. I've spoken with, advised, been taught by, and been assessed by numerous tutors over the years. I can count with the fingers on one hand the number I have come across who have had half a clue what they were talking about and only two out of maybe twenty or so that I know well are actually knowledgable.

2. There is no process in place for weeding out the chaff when it comes to further education in this day and age. It all comes down to bums on seats. It doesn't seem to matter that Joe Bloggs, who is an applicant to an electrical apprenticeship, can't add two and two together. As long as he stumps up the cash, he'll get dragged through along with the rest of the class.

3. There is no system in place to prevent people on electrical courses continuing past year one unless they have gained employment in the industy. No matter how good your theory knowledge may be, there is simply no substitute for real hands on experience. Joe Bloggs, who if you remember can't add two and two together, can sign up for a three year course, get dragged through it, and then walk out with a certificate in his hand having spent not one single day on a site doing the job he is supposedly qualified to do, nor completed a single assessment without having had at least half of the answers given to him on a plate.

Fix these three things, along with the complete abolition of any fast track course into the industry and any private body who supports them, and most importantly make this retrospective so that any five week whizz kid has to complete a core qualification to continue in his role, and maybe, in a few years time we might start to see a once proud and elite trade standing on its feet again.
 
Last edited:
It's definitely heading that way I agree, but we must be careful not to tar the full core quals with the same brush as the 5 day whizz kid courses. When I was at college, and we're only talking a few years ago, I was working with SWA and mineral cable within the first few weeks and were taught three phase theory from day one. Motors and their control were in year two along with advanced maths and theory continuing into year three. Now I had by no means a perfect education. In fact, with the benefit of hindsight the tutors I had in year two specifically should not have been allowed anywhere near a FE college! They were bloody useless, and I was extremely lucky to have a third year tutor who was outstanding, and managed to re-teach us properly, a lot of what we had been taught wrong in our second year. That said, I don't feel that the non domestic stuff was reduced to a mere 'brief mention'. In fact, I don't feel that my course was domestically orientated at all.

My personal experiences aside however, the knowledge learners need to be decent, all-round sparks is all there in the current syllabus. I genuinely believe that the reason for such a large amount of people leaving FE colleges nowadays with an electrical qual in hand but with very little knowledge has not very much to do with the actual content of the course, but instead is mainly down to three other things:

1. There are in my experience an enormous amount of clueless tutors out there! I've both used the services of, and provided services to four state funded colleges local to me. I've spoken with, advised, been taught by, and been assessed by numerous tutors over the years. I can count with the fingers on one hand the number I have come across who have had half a clue what they were talking about and only two out of maybe twenty or so that I know well are actually knowledgable.

2. There is no process in place for weeding out the chaff when it comes to further education in this day and age. It all comes down to bums on seats. It doesn't seem to matter that Joe Bloggs, who is an applicant to an electrical apprenticeship, can't add two and two together. As long as he stumps up the cash, he'll get dragged through along with the rest of the class.

3. There is no system in place to prevent people on electrical courses continuing past year one unless they have gained employment in the industy. No matter how good your theory knowledge may be, there is simply no substitute for real hands on experience. Joe Bloggs, who if you remember can't add two and two together, can sign up for a three year course, get dragged through it, and then walk out with a certificate in his hand having spent not one single day on a site doing the job he is supposedly qualified to do, nor completed a single assessment without having had at least half of the answers given to him on a plate.

Fix these three things, along with the complete abolition of any fast track course into the industry and any private body who supports them, and most importantly make this retrospective so that any five week whizz kid has to complete a core qualification to continue in his role, and maybe, in a few years time we might start to see a once proud and elite trade standing on its feet again.

I was one of these that did my 2330 without setting foot on site.

I did at least a couple months of work experience while I was trying to get an apprenticeship/ a company to take me on
 
Well, I'm ignoring ignorance but regarding experience in different types of work, today was interesting. Quote for a house rewire, with live in tenants....tripped 400amp MG compact C400 N killing half a decent sized factory .....botched bathroom GU10 lights, all completely sealed with silicon (holes cut too small) no chance of removing the lamps.....and, to finish, a control fault on a 50 year old circular saw, involving star delta starter.
I'm dreading sorting that bathroom out.
 

Reply to Save our trade! in the UK Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

News and Offers from Sponsors

  • Article
Join us at electronica 2024 in Munich! Since 1964, electronica has been the premier event for technology enthusiasts and industry professionals...
    • Like
Replies
0
Views
444
  • Sticky
  • Article
Good to know thanks, one can never have enough places to source parts from!
Replies
4
Views
1K
  • Article
OFFICIAL SPONSORS These Official Forum Sponsors May Provide Discounts to Regular Forum Members - If you would like to sponsor us then...
Replies
0
Views
1K

OFFICIAL SPONSORS

Electrical Goods - Electrical Tools - Brand Names Electrician Courses Green Electrical Goods PCB Way Electrical Goods - Electrical Tools - Brand Names Pushfit Wire Connectors Electric Underfloor Heating Electrician Courses
These Official Forum Sponsors May Provide Discounts to Regular Forum Members - If you would like to sponsor us then CLICK HERE and post a thread with who you are, and we'll send you some stats etc

YOUR Unread Posts

This website was designed, optimised and is hosted by untold.media Operating under the name Untold Media since 2001.
Back
Top