Seem to find time wasters

[brodders97]

Hi all,

I’ve not long started out on my own, and so because of this I try to keep my quotes down to generate business to start, but I seem to spend half my time giving out estimations to people and that’s the end of it. I seem to only find tire kickers.

I know my prices are on the lower side, I believe I present myself well, chat to the customers a little while and get to know them etc, but when I sent the price out they’re never to be heard from again, and if they do reply, it’s always the same, too expensive!!!

For example, yesterday I priced one up, 2 days work. £800 in total including around £400 materials, to get told I’m too expensive… it seems most people want something for nothing.

Anyway, my question is, is this experienced by most tradesmen, or is it just my luck at the moment?

Cheers

 

[Dustydazzler]

I’d quite happily take $BTC as a payment method, I’m well into my crypto, trading digital assets are becoming a lot more popular these days.

I know a couple builders , plumbers and sparks who will accept crypto-currency as payment from certain clients

 

[JBW175]

I know a couple builders , plumbers and sparks who will accept crypto-currency as payment from certain clients

I don’t blame them, I’d certainly have no qualms in accepting it. Digital money is the future in my eyes.

I use my phone or watch to tap and pay for most things these days, paper money will eventually be a thing of the past and crypto will play a part in it.

 

[Dustydazzler]

I don’t blame them, I’d certainly have no qualms in accepting it. Digital money is the future in my eyes.

I use my phone or watch to tap and pay for most things these days, paper money will eventually be a thing of the past and crypto will play a part in it.

Cyber money will be the 'new' cash in hand

 

[JBW175]

Cyber money will be the 'new' cash in hand

But getting back onto the subject of cash, I’ll readily accept it as a payment.

It’s when people offer it up as a payment option expecting you to do the job cheaper. Sorry mate, my price is my price, how you want to pay is completely up to you.

 

[mattg4321]

It’s more expensive for me as a business to handle cash than a bank transfer.

 

[Dustydazzler]

But getting back onto the subject of cash, I’ll readily accept it as a payment.

It’s when people offer it up as a payment option expecting you to do the job cheaper. Sorry mate, my price is my price, how you want to pay is completely up to you.

In the past if my initial quote was say £220 for a quick job , I 'sometimes' would take say £200 'for cash'

But not so much now as most people prefer to pay bank transfer and very rarely offer up 'cash in hand'

I do know some builders who will knock 10% OFF for cash but they are all a bit wheeler dealer types

 

[Risteard]

It’s more expensive for me as a business to handle cash than a bank transfer.

Exactly. There should be a surcharge rather than discount for cash. I accept payment in cash but certainly don't encourage it.

 

[mainline]

Exactly. There should be a surcharge rather than discount for cash. I accept payment in cash but certainly don't encourage it.

If anyone has spare cash, give it to me and i'll put it in your bank account less the %5 handling

 

[LukeD]

It’s more expensive for me as a business to handle cash than a bank transfer.

It’s more expensive for me as a business to handle cash than a bank transfer.

Plus the time to go to the bank.....

 

[nicebutdim]

Plus the time to go to the bank.....

For large amounts it can be a pain, but smaller amounts I add to petty cash and keep it on hand.

I've always said that I'll accept any form of payment feasible, including Japanese Yen, provided all costs are covered, but I'd draw the line at Vietnamese Dong.


Different types of payment will be more prevalent in certain places and I'd expect people large cities to be more inclined to pay by card/apple/bank transfer etc than country folk.

 

[JBW175]

Getting back to waste of time customers…

Had a landlord message me on Tuesday night that’s got a rental near me, kitchen electrics have tripped and asked if I could attend.

Said earliest I can do is the next morning and gave him my rates, £60 first hour and £50 thereafter.

He comes back with, can you do it for £40?

I goes, no mate, but I’m sat here with all my electrics fully functioning and know how to fix them should they go ----.

Not the most professional response I know, but I was 4 cans of Tyskie deep at this point, had a clear diary until 1300, and thought I’d rather have a fry up and a late start than deal with idiots that try knock you down.

Needless to say, I didn’t hear back from him.

 

[nicebutdim]

Getting back to waste of time customers…

Had a landlord message me on Tuesday night that’s got a rental near me, kitchen electrics have tripped and asked if I could attend.

Said earliest I can do is the next morning and gave him my rates, £60 first hour and £50 thereafter.

He comes back with, can you do it for £40?

I goes, no mate, but I’m sat here with all my electrics fully functioning and know how to fix them should they go ----.

Not the most professional response I know, but I was 4 cans of Tyskie deep at this point, had a clear diary until 1300, and thought I’d rather have a fry up and a late start than deal with idiots that try knock you down.

Needless to say, I didn’t hear back from him.

That sort of mindset always has to gain some concession or a bargain price. It probably never occurred to him that he was asking you a favour and not doing you a favour by throwing an hour's work your way.

 

[JBW175]

That sort of mindset always has to gain some concession or a bargain price. It probably never occurred to him that he was asking you a favour and not doing you a favour by throwing an hour's work your way.

That’s the trouble, half of them think that they’re doing you a favour, but I’d rather work 3 days a week at my price, than 5 days a week at theirs.

Now I don’t get it right all the time and still struggle with pricing occasionally, but coming on here and reading through some of the threads we have on the subject, has given me the confidence to realise my worth and stick to my rates.

I’d also like to point out that I’m not normally a dick to potential customers, but I’d had a few beers and was finding myself funny.

 

[nicebutdim]

I’d also like to point out that I’m not normally a dick to potential customers, but I’d had a few beers and was finding myself funny.

I doubt it did him any harm - sometimes we all need to have things put to us straight.

 

[timhoward]

Some people HAVE to have the last word on price. Last week I was clearing out the shed, and realised I have 3 tents. It was clear one of them would never be used by us again - we'd got it in Netherlands as an emergency purchase when our caravan awning collapsed. It now was 4 years old, used once, and in perfect condition so I stuck it on facebook marketplace for a £15 bargain. It sold quickly and was collected.
Before I had the chance to mark it as sold, someone had the temerity to offer me £11.50 for it!!!

 

[123]

Some people HAVE to have the last word on price. Last week I was clearing out the shed, and realised I have 3 tents. It was clear one of them would never be used by us again - we'd got it in Netherlands as an emergency purchase when our caravan awning collapsed. It now was 4 years old, used once, and in perfect condition so I stuck it on facebook marketplace for a £15 bargain. It sold quickly and was collected.
Before I had the chance to mark it as sold, someone had the temerity to offer me £11.50 for it!!!

Ha, that's nowt. Wait till you list something you want shot of for free, that brings the best of them out. We did that with mother in laws old kitchen appliances...all old Miele stuff fully working, the amount after free delivery & installation was shocking.

 

[nicebutdim]

I hope you offered a decent warranty on those appliances.

 

[mainline]

Some people HAVE to have the last word on price. Last week I was clearing out the shed, and realised I have 3 tents. It was clear one of them would never be used by us again - we'd got it in Netherlands as an emergency purchase when our caravan awning collapsed. It now was 4 years old, used once, and in perfect condition so I stuck it on facebook marketplace for a £15 bargain. It sold quickly and was collected.
Before I had the chance to mark it as sold, someone had the temerity to offer me £11.50 for it!!!

Terrible, worth at least £12

 

[Dustydazzler]

Ha, that's nowt. Wait till you list something you want shot of for free, that brings the best of them out. We did that with mother in laws old kitchen appliances...all old Miele stuff fully working, the amount after free delivery & installation was shocking.

There are one or two good people who pick up freebies

I wanted rid of our old wooden decking boards, big pile of them I took up with most in good nick and perfectly reusable.
I stuck them on Gumtree saying free to pick up from outside our house.
A guy messaged me and said he would come take them away, great I said they are all yours.

He came when we were out but when got home I found some big real ale bottles on the doorstep as a thankyou

 

[123]

There are one or two good people who pick up freebies

I wanted rid of our old wooden decking boards, big pile of them I took up with most in good nick and perfectly reusable.
I stuck them on Gumtree saying free to pick up from outside our house.
A guy messaged me and said he would come take them away, great I said they are all yours.

He came when we were out but when got home I found some big real ale bottles on the doorstep as a thankyou

See, I can see if that was me I'd come home to be left with the decking boards they didn't need or the less good ones all left behind and a negative seller review left for me

 

[Welchyboy1]

Awkward to avoid paying tax if you are supplying invoices.

And certificates and part P notifications

You would be a silly boy to not put it through the books

 

[LukeD]

And certificates and part P notifications

You would be a silly boy to not put it through the books

Question....what parts link up to HMRC these days ? Unless they come to check you the chances are very very few people will use their side of the paper trail for tax reasons .The chances of things linking together and forming a issue are supper slim. But still not worth it !

 

[nicebutdim]

Question....what parts link up to HMRC these days ? Unless they come to check you the chances are very very few people will use their side of the paper trail for tax reasons .The chances of things linking together and forming a issue are supper slim. But still not worth it !

I'm guessing you've never been subjected to a tax or VAT inspection.

 

[LukeD]

Tax only (NOT VAT) only 4 times in 30 odd years . I Always use very very well known and respected accountants that have a good reputation with HMRC .Friends who use the low end dodgy lot seem to get more trouble ! The accountants always say .."tell us the truth , we do the rest " .It just not worth the pain. Ive seen a guy who was 100% innocent (This time ) get hauled over for a year and it nearly cost him his marriage . All because he had tried playing around before

 

[mainline]

Question....what parts link up to HMRC these days ? Unless they come to check you the chances are very very few people will use their side of the paper trail for tax reasons .The chances of things linking together and forming a issue are supper slim. But still not worth it !

A friend of mine self-employed not vat registered did work on a regular basis for many years for a company who had their accounts checked this led back to him cost him, £12000.

 

[nicebutdim]

Tax only (NOT VAT) only 4 times in 30 odd years . I Always use very very well known and respected accountants that have a good reputation with HMRC .Friends who use the low end dodgy lot seem to get more trouble ! The accountants always say .."tell us the truth , we do the rest " .It just not worth the pain. Ive seen a guy who was 100% innocent (This time ) get hauled over for a year and it nearly cost him his marriage . All because he had tried playing around before

In that you wouldn't consider not declaring income, regardless of how payment was made, and shouldn't have any reason to be concerned about accepting cash if that suits a customer.

 

[LukeD]

In that you wouldn't consider not declaring income, regardless of how payment was made, and shouldn't have any reason to be concerned about accepting cash if that suits a customer.

I fully declare every penny I earn via the business . I Cannot be bothered with grief

 

[pirate]

The "no VAT" for cash payment is a scam in itself anyway. How much? £100 +VAT, but £100 for cash...
So, I pay £100, and save £20, but you, Mr. tradesperson, still get £100, whereas if I pay you £120, you get £100 and pay the VAT-man £20...and then you pay 40% tax on the £100, so you get £60. thus, for cash, you get £100, and save £40 in tax plus don't have to do the VAT paperwork...OK, I'll pay £80 for cash...seems fair?
Very nice chap came to service my daughter's gas boiler. It needed some minor work, bill was £180 including VAT. it was lockdown time, so I met him at the flat and gave him the £180 in cash and off he went. 2 minutes later he's back at the door, hands me some money and says "You don't need to pay the VAT if you are paying in cash"...Nice guy!

 

[Pretty Mouth]

So, I pay £100, and save £20, but you, Mr. tradesperson, still get £100, whereas if I pay you £120, you get £100 and pay the VAT-man £20...and then you pay 40% tax on the £100, so you get £60. thus, for cash, you get £100, and save £40 in tax plus don't have to do the VAT paperwork...OK, I'll pay £80 for cash...seems fair?

I see it the other way. Mr Tradesperson is the one assuming all of the risk. If (s)he is to commit a crime, then why do it for the customer's benefit?

 

[UNG]

Plus the time to go to the bank.....

Given all the bank closures it is getting more difficult to get to one these days

 

[Intoelectrics]

Going way back to when I was a teen ager and I worked for a big retailer , I am sure I read in the handbook that roughly 3.5%-4% of the rrp price was to cover for 'shrinkage' which is basically theft , breakages and faulty returns etc

Yep good point,

This is standard and good practice for most firms. The biggest mistake many people make when running a business is to not making sure that ALL costs are covered and with some contingency when quoting jobs. Its quite easy, especially as a sole trader, to neglect hidden costs or one off payments and not consider these in your pricing. At the end of the day you should be earning a decent living and making at the very least a small profit else you are on a downward spiral or at best constantly treading water. At this point you may as well just go cards in and stress free.

I've fell foul many times to being a busy fool to no benefit of my own. These days I'd rather sit at home than work for nowt. But I can understand someone who is starting out in business needs to be keen and establish things. Unfortunately this means there will be some "down" moments and some losses. The trick is to try and cover this off in the "up" moments.

 

[Dustydazzler]

The first few years in business you will absorb a few hits and certain jobs will be less profitable as they simply take you longer than you priced for. Small jobs like small occupied re-wires can often be more time consuming than massive jobs/

I certainly have under-estimated how long jobs would take on many many occasions, and still sometimes look at a job and reckon it will take me 3 long days when in reality I know it will run to 4 or maybe even 5 days.

The key is as you say to mitigate these loses by making maximum profit on other jobs. Like if you can make a £1000 profit on a 1 day board swap , this will afford you an extra day that month when you are faffing about trying to get other jobs completed in your own time

 

[Diddy]

I'm guessing you've never been subjected to a tax or VAT inspection.

My cousin who actually had done nothing wrong copped a random tax and vat inspection. He was looking at £12k because of some cash going through his personal account that he couldn't account for (Just poor book keeping). His accountant was/is an ex employee of HMRC, he advised him to get to the doc and tell him he had depression. He did this then the accountant informed HMRC that this protracted investigation into a stressed man's affairs was making him more ill. Tax inspector closed the case and wrote it off. True story that. BTW it turns out said cousin WAS actually suffering from stress/depression and still receives treatment to this day.

 

[Mike Johnson]

My last VAT inspection (some years back) two inspectors for three days, they owed me just under £1.00, amazing waste of our combined time, why do they target small business's, because it's easier to inspect them and not have to deal with company accountants, and with big business's they would be out of their depth under reams of paper.

 

[HappyHippyDad]

I have heard this actually, I thought living in the area I live in, keeping prices low would appeal to the masses. I guess by doing this I’m attracting the wrong kind of people haha. Time for a switch up perhaps

Whenever I go along to a quote I make sure I am clean shaved. I keep my work clothes on, but they are clean, not covered in grime and dust. I always put my fancy overlay shoes on when I walk in, this gets noticed and commented on. I take as long as is needed with the customer so they feel they are being listened to (which they are). I then write the quote up within a few days, but I take time writing the quote so it is well written and without spelling mistakes. All this takes a bit of extra time, but I charge £350 a day labour and get 95% of my quotes.

I think some people feel discouraged by a too low a price.

 

[nicebutdim]

My last VAT inspection (some years back) two inspectors for three days, they owed me just under £1.00, amazing waste of our combined time, why do they target small business's, because it's easier to inspect them and not have to deal with company accountants, and with big business's they would be out of their depth under reams of paper.

I'd broadly agree, but I guess random inspections turn up enough bad apples and provide leads to other tax evaders.

 

[Dustydazzler]

If your 'price' is too low then you are just making a rod for your own back and allowing no room for errors.
A 'low' price , smells of shoddy rushed work and lack of professionalism , customers aren't stupid and 99% realise you are in business to make money but equally do a proper job.

How does the old saying go... ' you get what you pay for ' ?

 

[nicebutdim]

How does the old saying go... ' you get what you pay for ' ?

Mostly that holds true, but plenty of shoddy work is carried out at high prices.

 

[Dustydazzler]

Mostly that holds true, but plenty of shoddy work is carried out at high prices.

Oh for sure, I have seen loads of really carp work recently done by builders who have charged the home owner a small fortune for the work.

But usually carp work comes from builders / trades pricing too low to start with then having to rush or do a shoddy job because they simply need to get in and out in a hurry to make any money on the job