Should those seeking Fast Track routes into the trade be belittled ?

[SparksWill Fly]

I seems that resentment, ego and selfishness are at play on some construction trade related forums when ever the question of fast track courses pops up. Again on "some" forums, i get a sense of..

"I had to do such and such, so i don't even care if the fast track course was any good anyway. Or even if it's the only option some folk have because i had to go through this certain method, so therefore everybody else should have to, I don't care if my comments put folks off wanting to do well for themselves, even if fast track is their only option, because my own ego and selfishness is more important than their life"

Of course no one would ever admit that the reason they say such and such comment is because they are stroking their ego and are selfish, they will just say that it simply has to do with their concern as to the quality of workmanship that folks have after completing fast track courses. And I'm sure this is true for some, but even for those whos opinion is based solely on the quality of the workmanship of a "fast-tracker" they should still be considerate of the fact that other folks are entitled to become tradesmen just as much as they are, only they don't have the same available options you have/had in order to get there. But certain other users who post on construction forums (i'm not just picking on this forum but any tradesman related forum) I feel, post comments simply with an intent to be negative in a way that mirrors what i explained above with regards to "Resentment" "Ego" "Selfishness"

 

[DNS1]

to be frank i think DNS is trying to wind you lot up, he only replies to those who disagree with his plans,

Really not trying to wind anyone up.

I've heard all the pro-intensive training course stuff before though, so will only be questioning the stuff i don't know.

Talking of doctors/surgeons though... My partner will be very soon qualified as a doctor. She's done many years of theory at medical school and some practical stuff too naturally. However, she goes straight in after that as a doctor, she doesn't have to have experience as a nurse first...

Forgive me if I'm wrong but personally I think it's a fair comparison. There are different ways of learning the same stuff aren't there?

Please don't think I'm trying to take the mickey or anything. Seriously, I have respect for proper electricians and would love to include myself as one of you some day. Just having a very hard time working out how right now.

 

[Adam W]

Interesting opinions. Keep em coming.

Oh and by the way. View attachment 5027

Yes but what does that have to do with this discussion?

 

[RWJ]

Really not trying to wind anyone up.

I've heard all the pro-intensive training course stuff before though, so will only be questioning the stuff i don't know.

Talking of doctors/surgeons though... My partner will be very soon qualified as a doctor. She's done many years of theory at medical school and some practical stuff too naturally. However, she goes straight in after that as a doctor, she doesn't have to have experience as a nurse first...

Forgive me if I'm wrong but personally I think it's a fair comparison. There are different ways of learning the same stuff aren't there?

That's right... They're called F1's and F2's and are medical apprentices (do a google search) so what you telling us is you completely agree with there is not easy way to become an electrician.

Oh and saw an advert yesterday to become a solicitor in 3 months!!!!!! Another so called training provider conning people

 

[SPARTYKUS]

They probably mean "legal administrator" or some other cobblers that like to pretend theyve done 10 years to become a solicitor. Aint no fast track for that either!!

Stella head urrrghhh

 

[Hawk81]

I mentioned the doctor thing way back on page 4 or 5 of this thread. Everyone seemed to ignor my point about electrical work being dangerous and a 6 week coarse with no practical experience is a bad idea. It is not safe for the newly qualified "spark or his customers. They need their Work to be supervised and to take instruction from someone with experience before be allowed to go it alone. Well that's what I think

 

[Paul.M]

The road to becoming an electrician is not a straight clear path, everyone is different. Some may have to do a fast track due to their age and financial commitments of every day life, others may be able to work as a mate/labourer + going to college one day a week for 3 years.

Imo it all boils down to the individual themselves if they can take in the complex teachings and apply them to a physical result.

Regardless if you get your qualifications via a fast track or 3 years at college the real learning starts on site and never stops, people that believe they have finished their education once they have a certificate in their hand are all wrong and the quality of their work will show that.

We've all become electricians by travelling different paths and we all have pride in our work, this is the bench mark we all need to reach regardless of how we got our quals.

 

[Electricalserv]

Sorry if that sounded a bit harsh, just finding this whole situation very frustrating.

How much does my current experience count for? As said before, all DIY for family and friends but I've taught myself to plaster from scratch, fit bathrooms, rewire houses, lay bricks etc... Surely this must be worth something?

You are exactly the type of person that annoys me. Fast track course....taking the work which I do away from me. I've been in the game 6 years and payed alot for my qualifications.....Very very annoyed

 

[SparksWill Fly]

Lets take a different angle. Say someone is going to do fast-track whether you like it or not what would your preferred method of them getting into the industry be ?

For example:

Only take on small easy jobs for a while ?

Get a job on site with other sparks build up your knowledge working along side one of them in exchange for some of your wages ?

Maybe something could be arranged with wages department on site where by any experienced spark who has to work alongside a Fast-Tracker gets extra pay, in exchange for making sure they are getting on ok ?

I'm sure some of you could think of other reasons, to make things better for both sides.

Because the way i see it is this.

Fast-Trackers don't want to hear other sparks moaning and giving them attitude just because they did fast track.

And Sparks already established in the game don't want Fast-Trackers taking their work and or doing shoddy work.

Would it not be better to find a way of getting along, rather than doing each others heads in ?

 

[malcolmsanford]

The bottom line to all this is that intangible .........experience.

I have no doubt that someone with a modicum of intelligence will in theory pass a course where the objective is to pass you not train you.

That is where the underlying difference is, an apprenticeship will train you, a course will pass you.

There is no argument to this. As an apprentice or intense training coure you will be trained and have the support of experienced electricians to call upon. You will never be put into a position where you will be able to harm you or anyone else. Everyone learns at their own pace, I knew when I was ready to work as an electrician, it was when I was given a job to do without supervision, that is the safety net of an apprenticeship or intense training.

I'm afraid the 5 week course will not afford you this. You are groomed to pass a course. After that 5 week period you are deemed competant enough to design, install test and certify that an electrical installation is safe for it's intended use. I can't see how that can be, perhaps in a simple single lighting circuit, but not all installs are simple lighting circuits. Even in domestic there are times you need to interpret tests that are not text book, look at a problem from a non text book way, or even have a problem where all the books in the world as not come across, that is where your training, not grooming comes to aid you.

There are a myriad of scenario's in domestic alone, earthing, bonding design, installing that a 5 week course will never touch, but an ex office worker would be expected to know and complete to make an installation safe for it's intended use.

Yes there are many platitudes on here, I will not run before I can walk, I intend to do small jobs to learn, I would never do anything that i'm not sure of.....etc etc. Human nature as it is tells me that is mainly poppycock. But the bottom line is the customer deserves a competant, trained, electrician to carry out their work, and to be frank so does this industry that I have worked in for nearly 40 years, it deserves it to.

 

[SparksWill Fly]

I have no doubt that someone with a modicum of intelligence will in theory pass a course where the objective is to pass you not train you.

That is where the underlying difference is, an apprenticeship will train you, a course will pass you.

Which course ? have you ever been on one ? they don't train you at courses ? surely the standard is there to ensure a necessary level of competence ? and therefore can only be passed if the standard is met ?

There is no argument to this. As an apprentice or intense training coure you will be trained and have the support of experienced electricians to call upon.

So the guys who teach on these Fast-Track courses are not experienced ?

You will never be put into a position where you will be able to harm you or anyone else.

You can absolutely guarantee this ? and do Fast-Trackers have a track record of harming people ? and if so more so than those who did apprenticeships ?

I'm afraid the 5 week course will not afford you this. You are groomed to pass a course. After that 5 week period you are deemed competant enough to design, install test and certify that an electrical installation is safe for it's intended use. I can't see how that can be.

Can you explain why in detail that you think this ?

To sum up your opinion. You think those who don't have the apprenticeship route available to them shouldn't attempt to become and electrician ?

Well then i would say, if those are the thoughts of (up them selves) sparkies then i don't care what you think I'm going to do Fast-Track anyway, just because you got that lucky break to go the apprenticeship route, doesn't in my opinion give you the right to tell others they shouldn't become electricians.

If you say "pull the rope up Jack, me and my fellow sparks who went the apprentice route are ok" then i don't care what you think.

If you think i should only become a sparky if i can get trained up by you or 1 of your other stuck up "apprenticeship route" buddies, but then you tell me tough luck there's no apprenticeships. And you leave it at that. Then you can go get stuffed i don't care what you and your cronies think as rightly so.

It's seems pretty obvious that the issue is selfish people who don't want anymore sparkies coming on board their nice little bubble.

If it was simply an issue with quality of workmanship then why aren't you all offering to help out in stead of just trying to put down Fast-Trackers. "REFER BACK TO MY FIRST POST FOR THE ANSWER"

 

[Des 56]

One thing I would like to take issue with, is the impression,giving by the posters of these type of debates, that there is a resentment towards the trainees, percieved to be by traditionally trained sparks

The training of the trainee is the issue,
Whether it is adequate, and whether it could or should be improved, before that trainee is let loose on the public

There seems to be nothing but a willingness on the part of most of the people on this forum to give their advice, which is generally gained through experience of working as a spark to any who ask whatever level they be

When this particular pot is stirred,its not the attitude of the spark that is in question,because there is always help available for trainees whatever their background or training

There are some people on here who side with the attitude that it took a lot of time and effort,those people are entitled, in my opinion, to feel betrayed by a system that they see as devaluing their efforts, whilst the country encorouges lower skill levels than they themselves needed to posses


I think the members of this forum as a whole, deserve praise
Advise and information is given with the experience gained and done so without predjudice to anyone whether fast track or traditional
So a thumbs up to both the forum and those members who actively assist strangers to adapt to the trade

 

[Hawk81]

Which course ? have you ever been on one ? they don't train you at courses ? surely the standard is there to ensure a necessary level of competence ? and therefore can only be passed if the standard is met ?



So the guys who teach on these Fast-Track courses are not experienced ?



You can absolutely guarantee this ? and do Fast-Trackers have a track record of harming people ? and if so more so than those who did apprenticeships ?



Can you explain why in detail that you think this ?

To sum up your opinion. You think those who don't have the apprenticeship route available to them shouldn't attempt to become and electrician ?

Well then i would say, if those are the thoughts of (up them selves) sparkies then i don't care what you think I'm going to do Fast-Track anyway, just because you got that lucky break to go the apprenticeship route, doesn't in my opinion give you the right to tell others they shouldn't become electricians.

If you say "pull the rope up Jack, me and my fellow sparks who went the apprentice route are ok" then i don't care what you think.

If you think i should only become a sparky if i can get trained up by you or 1 of your other stuck up "apprenticeship route" buddies, but then you tell me tough luck there's no apprenticeships. And you leave it at that. Then you can go get stuffed i don't care what you and your cronies think as rightly so.

It's seems pretty obvious that the issue is selfish people who don't want anymore sparkies coming on board their nice little bubble.

If it was simply an issue with quality of workmanship then why aren't you all offering to help out in stead of just trying to put down Fast-Trackers. "REFER BACK TO MY FIRST POST FOR THE ANSWER"

Obviously you did not read my post alot earlier in this thread where i said it was nothing to do with ego, being stuck up or jealous of fast trackers. It is more anger at these coarses who are lying to the people that they bring onto the coarse. They tell these people that after 6 weeks they are a qualified electrician. Yes on paper they are but the paper is worth nothing without the experience. Fast trackers should get off their high horse and listen to time served guys when advice is given into how much there is to learn and how it is a long hard road before gaining enough experience to be a good self employed electrician. It is impossible to learn all that is needed in 6 weeks. I done the apprentiship route and even after finishing it i still felt i needed more experience before going it alone.

 

[Adam W]

Only take on small easy jobs for a while ?

You mean going out with no experience and charging people to do something which they can probably do themself cheaper, or get someone experienced to do for the same price. Who would want to pay for that?

Get a job on site with other sparks build up your knowledge working along side one of them in exchange for some of your wages ?

Maybe something could be arranged with wages department on site where by any experienced spark who has to work alongside a Fast-Tracker gets extra pay, in exchange for making sure they are getting on ok ?

So not only paying someone with no experience the same wage as someone who can hit the ground running (or almost twice what a trainee gets paid), but taking an experienced spark away from the job to babysit you, and having to pay him more. Who's going to do that?

 

[mattmoo1974]

If you limit yourself to house bashing and then these 4 week courses come along and they can do the same as you, Id think id look into Industrail or commercial work.
You are all starting to come across as its are work and NO 1 else is allowed to do it.
FACTS are there are more and more people aviable to do this work.
I think id use my experience to move onto Indust/Comms as i cant see this being flooded by Part Pee 4 week coursers.
You can all belly ache about how its not fair etc, Every 1s got a right to make a living.
People want things done as cheap as poss.They dont care how long you were at college or how much it cost you. they dont care if you ve got a NVQ 3.
Cheapest gets the JOB. WAKE UP!

 

[Hawk81]

If you limit yourself to house bashing and then these 4 week courses come along and they can do the same as you, Id think id look into Industrail or commercial work.
You are all starting to come across as its are work and NO 1 else is allowed to do it.
FACTS are there are more and more people aviable to do this work.
I think id use my experience to move onto Indust/Comms as i cant see this being flooded by Part Pee 4 week coursers.
You can all belly ache about how its not fair etc, Every 1s got a right to make a living.
People want things done as cheap as poss.They dont care how long you were at college or how much it cost you. they dont care if you ve got a NVQ 3.
Cheapest gets the JOB. WAKE UP!

You wake up!! what part of no experience after a fast track coarse do you not get?? No matter what type of electrical work it is it is still dangerous. You can not justify to me that people without the proper training and experience should be undertaking this type of job. simple as.