Should those seeking Fast Track routes into the trade be belittled ?

[SparksWill Fly]

I seems that resentment, ego and selfishness are at play on some construction trade related forums when ever the question of fast track courses pops up. Again on "some" forums, i get a sense of..

"I had to do such and such, so i don't even care if the fast track course was any good anyway. Or even if it's the only option some folk have because i had to go through this certain method, so therefore everybody else should have to, I don't care if my comments put folks off wanting to do well for themselves, even if fast track is their only option, because my own ego and selfishness is more important than their life"

Of course no one would ever admit that the reason they say such and such comment is because they are stroking their ego and are selfish, they will just say that it simply has to do with their concern as to the quality of workmanship that folks have after completing fast track courses. And I'm sure this is true for some, but even for those whos opinion is based solely on the quality of the workmanship of a "fast-tracker" they should still be considerate of the fact that other folks are entitled to become tradesmen just as much as they are, only they don't have the same available options you have/had in order to get there. But certain other users who post on construction forums (i'm not just picking on this forum but any tradesman related forum) I feel, post comments simply with an intent to be negative in a way that mirrors what i explained above with regards to "Resentment" "Ego" "Selfishness"

 

[mattmoo1974]

So theres no way on earth you could learn to fit a lighting circuit or ring main in 5 weeks?
Its a 5 week house bashing course not 3 phase or any thing like that.
There not saying there full blown electricians, They can work on houses and as the OP guy said hes not going to go do a rewire. as for the dangerous part i can Imagine they teach them safe isolation.
TYes there are some Idiots out there with just part p. Some 1 will always abuse the system.
Not every single person who has done these short courses is a bodger.
And before you ask iv done mine the long way 2330 level 2-3 2391 17th
Iv also done part Pee and im afraid its teaches you enough!
What you need to realise is YOU CANT FIT A NEW CIRCUIT WITH LIMITED SCOPE!!

 

[Electricalserv]

So theres no way on earth you could learn to fit a lighting circuit or ring main in 5 weeks?
Its a 5 week house bashing course not 3 phase or any thing like that.
There not saying there full blown electricians, They can work on houses and as the OP guy said hes not going to go do a rewire. as for the dangerous part i can Imagine they teach them safe isolation.
TYes there are some Idiots out there with just part p. Some 1 will always abuse the system.
Not every single person who has done these short courses is a bodger.
And before you ask iv done mine the long way 2330 level 2-3 2391 17th
Iv also done part Pee and im afraid its teaches you enough!
What you need to realise is YOU CANT FIT A NEW CIRCUIT WITH LIMITED SCOPE!!

Explain this more to me...What exactly can these defined scopes do? A full rewires for house bashing and inspect, test & certify?

My problem is 5 week course doesn't make you competent to Inspect, test and cert. Competent in BS7671 states experience for competency? Explain?

I actually think you only have the PART p, 17th and 2391...could be wrong...jst find you are defending this really strongly

 

[brucelee]

at the end of the day its about doing a satisfactory job for a fair price as well as keeping to the requirments of bs7671 ,EAWR 1989 etc if you are competent in your ability and posses sufficient technical skills

If people go the 2330 route or the domestic installer route its all about there ability if they have no practical ability only way is to get some by whatever means they can. if employers wont take people on to help them gain experience the only way wether right or wrong is to learn yourself
To work with a sparky gives you invaluable experience as will his hints and tips in easier ways to do things
ITS the government and the people who set up college and short courses fault for not putting in place a required training method that will give you the theory and some practical skills neceessarry wether you went to college or private you will only truly learn how to be a electrician on the job if your not sure better to ask and look a fool than go blundering in and as later you will be the fool experience is a valuable thing but there is only one way to get it by doing the job
if you want to do a good job you will if you want to cut corners or bodge it and scarper then whether you are a apprentice trained spark or a guy who has had the practical experience but no quals then its always down to the individual what effort they put in is what will determine the quality of job which will come out of it

 

[DNS1]

You are exactly the type of person that annoys me. Fast track course....taking the work which I do away from me. I've been in the game 6 years and payed alot for my qualifications.....Very very annoyed

Oh I'm so sorry... Am I supposed to feel guilty for wanting to get myself into a career the only way I can?

The course I am looking at doing is NOT a 5 week fast track.

It will involve:

700+ hours of theory
200 hours practical teaching (exactly as you'd get from a sparks on site, except that the sparks there are ONLY there to teach, not trying to get a job done as well)

At the end the qualifications will be Part P, BS2382, 2377 and 2392.

If City and Guilds qualifications are going to people who are dangerously incompetent, then the complaints should be directed at them surely? Not the poor sod who has studied hard and does the job to the best of their ability. Likewise if NICEIC are registering dangerous electricians...

As for the bit about the money. The course I'm looking at will cost £7200, not exactly cheap is it?

 

[mattmoo1974]

Explain this more to me...What exactly can these defined scopes do? A full rewires for house bashing and inspect, test & certify?

My problem is 5 week course doesn't make you competent to Inspect, test and cert. Competent in BS7671 states experience for competency? Explain?

I actually think you only have the PART p, 17th and 2391...could be wrong...jst find you are defending this really strongly

\You cant join a body with just 5 week course,you need 17th and to prove testing ability. You do have a assesment,you dont just ring up and pay and they send you a book of certs and off you go.
Im defending because of some ppls attitude towards the 5 weekers.
If he only evers whats to do house bashing nothing else , No point in doing level 3 is there? Motors etc,because hes never going to come across it.
I just feel for the guy hes trying to get a new trade.
He comes on here and most ppl are super negative towards him because the only choose he had was a short course.
Every 1 seems to think if you done a 5 week course its going to be bodged.
Hes explained why hes had to do the short version and hes come on for a little help. I kinda thought the forums was for helping ppl. Hes not trying to class himself as a electrician hes a domestic installer Big difference! And your all kinda backing his question up by ranting about his lack of quals lol

 

[Adam W]

Oh I'm so sorry... Am I supposed to feel guilty for wanting to get myself into a career the only way I can?

The course I am looking at doing is NOT a 5 week fast track.

It will involve:

700+ hours of theory
200 hours practical teaching (exactly as you'd get from a sparks on site, except that the sparks there are ONLY there to teach, not trying to get a job done as well)

At the end the qualifications will be Part P, BS2382, 2377 and 2392.

If City and Guilds qualifications are going to people who are dangerously incompetent, then the complaints should be directed at them surely? Not the poor sod who has studied hard and does the job to the best of their ability. Likewise if NICEIC are registering dangerous electricians...

As for the bit about the money. The course I'm looking at will cost £7200, not exactly cheap is it?

It's not cheap, no. In fact if that's all you're getting £7200 is a bit of a rip off.

"Part P" is part of the building regulations. The course you refer to is most likely C&G 2393 which is a basic introduction to the building regs, ie reading a book.
C&G 2382 is the 17th edition wiring regulations, ie looking stuff up in a book.
C&G 2377 is portable appliance testing, which is only usually carried out in commercial and industrial premises.
C&G 2392 is an introduction to inspection and testing.
The 200 hours practical teaching is done in a bay in a workshop, which is more like a simulator than a building site.

NICEIC ARE registering dangerous electricians, which is the general point being made here.

Many of the colleges offering these packages will tell you that those certificates will make you a fully qualified electrician which would justify the £7200, however if you wanted to work for a company they would want either more qualifications (C&G 2330 or 2357) or several years of real life practical experience.

 

[DNS1]

Direct quote from the C&G website:

"A City & Guilds qualification is proof that you have the right skills to do your job well."

Surely C&G, NICEIC etc can't all be wrong...

 

[Electricalserv]

\You cant join a body with just 5 week course,you need 17th and to prove testing ability. You do have a assesment,you dont just ring up and pay and they send you a book of certs and off you go.
Im defending because of some ppls attitude towards the 5 weekers.
If he only evers whats to do house bashing nothing else , No point in doing level 3 is there? Motors etc,because hes never going to come across it.
I just feel for the guy hes trying to get a new trade.
He comes on here and most ppl are super negative towards him because the only choose he had was a short course.
Every 1 seems to think if you done a 5 week course its going to be bodged.
Hes explained why hes had to do the short version and hes come on for a little help. I kinda thought the forums was for helping ppl. Hes not trying to class himself as a electrician hes a domestic installer Big difference! And your all kinda backing his question up by ranting about his lack of quals lol

You can mate....Just need the domestic installer course part P, then to gain 2382 ithin a year.

 

[mattmoo1974]

One thing I would like to take issue with, is the impression,giving by the posters of these type of debates, that there is a resentment towards the trainees, percieved to be by traditionally trained sparks

The training of the trainee is the issue,
Whether it is adequate, and whether it could or should be improved, before that trainee is let loose on the public

There seems to be nothing but a willingness on the part of most of the people on this forum to give their advice, which is generally gained through experience of working as a spark to any who ask whatever level they be

When this particular pot is stirred,its not the attitude of the spark that is in question,because there is always help available for trainees whatever their background or training

There are some people on here who side with the attitude that it took a lot of time and effort,those people are entitled, in my opinion, to feel betrayed by a system that they see as devaluing their efforts, whilst the country encorouges lower skill levels than they themselves needed to posses


I think the members of this forum as a whole, deserve praise
Advise and information is given with the experience gained and done so without predjudice to anyone whether fast track or traditional
So a thumbs up to both the forum and those members who actively assist strangers to adapt to the trade

Well said DES

 

[Adam W]

\You cant join a body with just 5 week course,you need 17th and to prove testing ability. You do have a assesment,you dont just ring up and pay and they send you a book of certs and off you go.
Im defending because of some ppls attitude towards the 5 weekers.
If he only evers whats to do house bashing nothing else , No point in doing level 3 is there? Motors etc,because hes never going to come across it.
I just feel for the guy hes trying to get a new trade.
He comes on here and most ppl are super negative towards him because the only choose he had was a short course.
Every 1 seems to think if you done a 5 week course its going to be bodged.
Hes explained why hes had to do the short version and hes come on for a little help. I kinda thought the forums was for helping ppl. Hes not trying to class himself as a electrician hes a domestic installer Big difference! And your all kinda backing his question up by ranting about his lack of quals lol

He hasn't though - he's come on here having a rant at people who have qualifications and experience which he seems to think count for nothing. He won't take anyone's advice on board because he thinks "they are stroking their ego and are selfish" and for some reason has a problem with my avatar because if you rearrange the numbers and turn one of them around it spells "zion" which is in some way relevant to something.
He hasn't come here for help he's come here to wind people up.

 

[Paul.M]

Question to the OP or anyone that are thinking of becoming an electrician.

Q. What job are you in now and could I do the same quality of work as you with just a fast track course?

A.No, of course I couldn't without a certain amount of hands on experience. The state of our industry at this moment in time is not easy for anyone starting out regardless of how you obtained your qualifications (better on a cv if apprenticeship trained). The things that are holding us back:-

Companies/agencies looking for the cheapest rates.

Recession meaning people/companies don't have/don't want to spend money.

Lack of work + the increase of fast track trades (not just electrical) = inexperienced work being carried out that could be dangerous. (just watch cowboy builders)

People that want to change carriers flooding a drowning market (i can't complain nor put down anyone that wants to improve their lives, just know what your getting yourself in for. On site I will help you, on this forum I'm happy to advise to ensure a better and safer job is done).


At the end of the day lads we are all electricians with different qualifications and experiences and with these we should know what we can work on. If you don't know and take on every job in the hope that its safe, only time and someone's death may be the end result.

Do every job to the best of your ability, if not walk away. Know your limits. Don't cut corners. These are the words of a true electrician regardless of how he/she received their training.

 

[Adam W]

Direct quote from the C&G website:

"A City & Guilds qualification is proof that you have the right skills to do your job well."

Surely C&G, NICEIC etc can't all be wrong...

You need the RIGHT C&G qualifications though - the short courses were intended as add-ons once you had the main qualification. The NICEIC are primarily after your money, but that's a different debate.

 

[mattmoo1974]

You can mate....Just need the domestic installer course part P, then to gain 2382 ithin a year.

Yeah i remebered that from when i joined.
Still got to pass a assesment at the end of the day. But lets not split hairs
I did my Part P along side my level 2, Learnt more on Part pee to be honest with you.
But hey that ll stir the pot again

 

[brucelee]

I think the part p course he refers to if its with RF training is called LOGIC full scope electrical level A and defined scopes levels B, C , and he will have to take about 20 exams or more with questions from the BS7671, IEE elecys guide to building regs, OSG, as well as other papers and also practical assesments in a number of bays with different assignments
the 2393 is based on the full building regs and is taken from the book electrical installers guide to the building regs
Electrical Installers' Guide to the Building Regulations: v. 1: For Dwellings and Associated Areas in England and Wales Niceic: Amazon.co.uk: National Inspection Council for Electrical Installation Contracting (NICEIC), Electrical Contractors&#39

Its the courses and how they are designed and its just created a scam by the providers ad the government for the part p
the providers should be required to up the level of time given to the course and also reduce the cost or colleges should accept more adult trainees so they can all get equal access to whichever course they want for the level of work they wish to carry out

 

[DNS1]

You need the RIGHT C&G qualifications though - the short courses were intended as add-ons once you had the main qualification

Out of interest, what do you consider the main qualification to be?