Should those seeking Fast Track routes into the trade be belittled ?

[SparksWill Fly]

I seems that resentment, ego and selfishness are at play on some construction trade related forums when ever the question of fast track courses pops up. Again on "some" forums, i get a sense of..

"I had to do such and such, so i don't even care if the fast track course was any good anyway. Or even if it's the only option some folk have because i had to go through this certain method, so therefore everybody else should have to, I don't care if my comments put folks off wanting to do well for themselves, even if fast track is their only option, because my own ego and selfishness is more important than their life"

Of course no one would ever admit that the reason they say such and such comment is because they are stroking their ego and are selfish, they will just say that it simply has to do with their concern as to the quality of workmanship that folks have after completing fast track courses. And I'm sure this is true for some, but even for those whos opinion is based solely on the quality of the workmanship of a "fast-tracker" they should still be considerate of the fact that other folks are entitled to become tradesmen just as much as they are, only they don't have the same available options you have/had in order to get there. But certain other users who post on construction forums (i'm not just picking on this forum but any tradesman related forum) I feel, post comments simply with an intent to be negative in a way that mirrors what i explained above with regards to "Resentment" "Ego" "Selfishness"

 

[Des 56]

Out of interest, what do you consider the main qualification to be?

The ability to finance the joining fee

 

[Adam W]

Out of interest, what do you consider the main qualification to be?

C&G 2330, or the new 2357.

 

[DNS1]

Ok, that's what I thought after a little research on the forums...

I've looked at the options for doing the 2330 and it will be completely impossible in my current situation.

Is it realistic to do a distance learning course, get the 17th edition, Part P etc and then get work as a simple domestic installer whilst going to college for the 2330?

 

[Adam W]

Again, it comes down to experience. The 2330 can be done in the evening or day release 1 day a week, the idea being you work as an adult trainee the other days to gain real world experience while being paid at the same time.
Personally I think I would have struggled to motivate myself to do distance learning but that's down to the individual.
There are companies offering distance learning courses - you do the theory part then book in to their training centre to do the practical, but I've heard that some of them have a long wait when it comes to the practical which can be like banging your head against a wall.

 

[malcolmsanford]

Which course ? have you ever been on one ? they don't train you at courses ? surely the standard is there to ensure a necessary level of competence ? and therefore can only be passed if the standard is met ?

I'm sorry but you can not train someone to be an Electrician in 5 weeks, what can be taught in 5 weeks is the capacity to pass a course. I have no need to go on the course as I have all the qualifications I need to carry out my work in a competant manner, the thing is that as taken me 40 yrs to achieve this ...............not 5 weeks

So the guys who teach on these Fast-Track courses are not experienced ?

The guys who teach will most likely be expereinced, but expereince is something that can not be taught, if you think it can then to be honest your more dillusional than I thought.

You can absolutely guarantee this ? and do Fast-Trackers have a track record of harming people ? and if so more so than those who did apprenticeships ?

I can guarantee that on an apprenticeship or a intense period training course, that during your time on site you will not be left alone until the electrician that is training you deems it safe to let you work on an installation without causing harm to yourself and others. Can you tell me the same of a 5 week course where during that time you will never see an actual work place scenario

Can you explain why in detail that you think this ?

This where I explained what I meant but you obviosly ignored it

perhaps in a simple single lighting circuit, but not all installs are simple lighting circuits. Even in domestic there are times you need to interpret tests that are not text book, look at a problem from a non text book way, or even have a problem where all the books in the world as not come across, that is where your training, not grooming comes to aid you.

To sum up your opinion. You think those who don't have the apprenticeship route available to them shouldn't attempt to become and electrician ?

No you saw that I mention intensive training, which is 3 or 4 years at college, and during that time with luck you can get a placement on site. Apprenticeships are a rare, though not impossible,route into the industry, but there are other routes apart from a 5 week course that will give you training.

Well then i would say, if those are the thoughts of (up them selves) sparkies then i don't care what you think I'm going to do Fast-Track anyway, just because you got that lucky break to go the apprenticeship route, doesn't in my opinion give you the right to tell others they shouldn't become electricians.

I would never tell anyone that wasn't fortunate enough to do an apprenticeship not be an Electrician. You can by all means do whichever course is fit for you, the difference is you will be a Domestic Installer, but not an electrician, there is quite a difference believe me.

If you say "pull the rope up Jack, me and my fellow sparks who went the apprentice route are ok" then i don't care what you think.

Fortunately I don't need to pull any rope up as I no longer need or desire to work in someones house. You see my thorough training as an apprentice, then 40 years of experience and continuing training makes it possible for me to do other work within the industry, that would not be open to a 5 week course graduate.

If you think i should only become a sparky if i can get trained up by you or 1 of your other stuck up "apprenticeship route" buddies, but then you tell me tough luck there's no apprenticeships. And you leave it at that. Then you can go get stuffed i don't care what you and your cronies think as rightly so.

I would find it hard to imagnie you having the discilipne to do an apprenticeship to be honest. It is obvious by your out bursts of emotion that your very bitter and twisted about the lack of oppotunity you have to be trained correctly. I'm sorry that you have beed denied an apprenticeship, but that is not the only route to being an electrician, a 5 week course though is definately not the route.

It's seems pretty obvious that the issue is selfish people who don't want anymore sparkies coming on board their nice little bubble.

I'm not sure the bubble is that nice

If it was simply an issue with quality of workmanship then why aren't you all offering to help out in stead of just trying to put down Fast-Trackers. "REFER BACK TO MY FIRST POST FOR THE ANSWER"

I must have trained possibly at least 15 lads to be electricians in my time when on the tools and I knew exactly when they were competant enough to work on their own, and not one of them was, even after a year.

 

[DNS1]

I must have trained possibly at least 15 lads to be electricians in my time when on the tools and I knew exactly when they were competant enough to work on their own, and not one of them was, even after a year.

Out of interest, who were these lads?

Please remember that a lot of the people who do intensive courses are not school leaving kids, but academically qualified, mature adults, who in many cases have already succeeded in careers, but want a new challenge.

No disrespect to people who did the apprentiship straight from school of course, I just felt it fair to point out the difference. I've worked with "experienced" people who I wouldn't trust to lug the boxes and kids with no experience at all who just fell into place and were naturals (we're talking tech work on stage here, not electrics of course)

 

[RWJ]

Out of interest, who were these lads?

Please remember that a lot of the people who do intensive courses are not school leaving kids, but academically qualified, mature adults, who in many cases have already succeeded in careers, but want a new challenge.

No disrespect to people who did the apprentiship straight from school of course, I just felt it fair to point out the difference. I've worked with "experienced" people who I wouldn't trust to lug the boxes and kids with no experience at all who just fell into place and were naturals (we're talking tech work on stage here, not electrics of course)

What??? Why do you think you know them???

There was Paul and Barry Chuckle, Bill, Steve, Ralf, Uncle Ben (when he wasn't making rice products), The big bloke off lost (he counted as two people).....

What do you want their phone numbers to check out Malcs training

 

[DNS1]

Any particular reason for the sarcastic reply?

 

[Des 56]

DNS1

You would be wise to take heed of the opinions of Malcolm, who by demonstration on this forum has a very high technical and industry knowlege
He helps novices, and people who have been qualified sparks for many years to understand topics and solutions that they, after many years ingesting knowlege and experience, still find above their abilities, because, the learning of the trade rarely ceases even after many years

He is also correct that the term electrician may not be applicable to all
There are many electricans operating in the Domestic market who have the ability to perform in other sectors
There are also operating in the domestic market,domestic installers(a very modern term)that could not operate elsewhere in the industry

With an intensive course,the arguments about experience and competence can be argued
In other sectors an intensive course will more than likely not result in employment whether self employed or Jib etc

Training to be a domestic installer may have more validity, if the training companies promoted it as such,but as an electrican,it is stretching the ability of a person to superhuman proportions for a succesful outcome

That is the reality to the hype given out by training companies who promote 3 week sparks

Anybody paying out hard earned money to become trained I wish them well, and hope they become sucessfull,but the real world will tend to be not so embracing, and there is a chance and a danger that the hard earned or sometimes indebted money that good folk pay to these fly by night trainers, may indeed be a very high price for small reward

Electricians are not the high waged tradesmen that is popularised,so even success may be another price to pay on top of the exorbitant training fees out there

In the end the main and possibly only people happy and content and raking in that money,are those very same training companies who spout nonesense in the first place

 

[DNS1]

Des,

Thanks very much for the well reasoned reply.

I totally understand where you're coming from when you're talking about fully qualified sparks and domestic installers.

I understand that by doing one of these courses I will be becoming an installer as opposed to a proper electrician, I agree that it would be preferable if the training centres advertised as such.

As much as I'd like to be able to go down the "old fashioned" route, because of my situation I'm going to have to go with one of the training centres (although I'm looking at the ones which advertise a realistic time-span for the course, not the "become an electrician in 2 days" rubbish). The way I see it, it's all I can do at the moment and domestic installer would be the first rung on a very long ladder. Nevertheless, it would be a step towards getting out of my current job, which in turn would give me the extra time I need to get to get some experience and get to college for the 2330 etc.

 

[Spudnik]

No one has mentioned the fact that entry requirements on to a scheme will be tightened up for new applicants soon.

I cant remember exactly but i think it was based on NVQ3?

 

[brucelee]

HI mate there is nothing wrong with the route you are suggesting not for everyone but depends on your circumstance
If like I who have been involved on and off in electrical installation for 25yr without gaining any quals
its the only route left
I never completed my apprenticeship as i was 16 and learning nothing except who sir henry watt was or volter or marconi etc writing essays on who they were or when they where born and what they invented which was totally useless information on how to do the job did this teach me how to install cables or install fittings or equipment no so after being used as a lacky and not learning how to do the job i quit
I learned later by working for a electrical contractors who taught me how to wire new build houses residential homes and some commercial new build and rewires also alarm systems i learned myself

But as a result of not having no quals and always being told there were no courses available and eventually i was to old there was no way to get back on a apprenticeship or similar at least thats what the government agencies said found it increasingly difficult to get a job withpout them

After my mrs was left disabled and we had to both give up work after more negative information from the benefits agencies and every other place i contacted to try to get training or help
I had to after much deliberation pay a large amount of money to get a few qualifications and 6 week training by a private training provider as this was my only option as a adult who is also a carer full time to finally start putting right what i threw away as a stupid 16 year old and so i could work self employed

then i decided to make my self more employable if the self employed route doesnt work out to go for the 2391-10 which i passed first time in june last year i was the only 1 of the 4 that passed out of the 10 of us who took the exam and i was the only 1 not working also to learn more about inspection and testing and 1 out of the 39% who passed and not 1 of the 61% who failed so a achievment i am proud of as i studied every day for 4 months upto 12 hrs a day in between being a carer and father ,dog walker etc lol

I have now enrolled for the 2330 lv3 after again contacting every college i could within a hour or so drive and been trying to get on for a number of years. Even though C&G would have me believe was ending the same day i finally got accepted for a place to then come home from signing the enrollment form to find out the last registration date had changed from 31.03.2011 to 31.07.2012 I could have had enough time to do the lv2 also but now will just have to hope i get the 2330 lv3 as a stand alone qualification. I have also enrolled for this to learn more about motors and technical knowledge which i hope will also make me more employable also i have registered for the 2356 NVQ lv3 which then i believe will entitle me to a JIB approved electrician status which is my goal

NOT all people who go the quick course route do so out of greed or a whim but after much deliberation and great cost considering i have funded this my self from savings we had just to give us a better future not to take work from you just to survive with some pride and not take government handouts from people such as you who may pay your taxes as i used to do which is what the benefits system told me to do there words were

as you are a carer there is no help with funding ,training, setting up self employed and You are exempt from work or even looking for work, Even when i asked about part time was told I would be worse off so there was no point her words It took over 6 month of emails and telephone calls just to get a appointment and then it was only after contacting the central department for the employment services just to get to see a advisor to see what benefits I would lose what help there was which was none. I even had to give up my carers allowance and NI contributions for duration of the course
This is the only job i ever wanted to do so by any means i will

 

[brucelee]

No one has mentioned the fact that entry requirements on to a scheme will be tightened up for new applicants soon.

I cant remember exactly but i think it was based on NVQ3?

jason do you know when this is coming into place hopefully not before i sign up so they are moving the goal posts again i see

 

[sparky1502]

Re: How do I get into the trade?

Out of interest, what jobs are you doing? Sparks related?

To be honest (I don't want people to think I'm bragging), the £6k is not a big deal, as long as I can do my current job alongside. At the end of the day, the bits of paper will be the same whether they come from a fast track centre, or a local college.

well in the week monday to thursday i work as a electricians mate but when my sparky mate doesn't have any work i work with a builder as a labourer/ tea lady the up side to that is i am bang tidy at plastering and the like.. friday is a full day at college then saturday and sunday i work as a security guard working 10 hrs on saturday and 8 hrs on sunday. its not about the 6k being a big deal its about the right and wrong way to go about it....

 

[SPARTYKUS]

GREAT post brucelee . You should be proud, i passed 2391 last june (I was the other one!!!) and its in a frame on the wall.