Should those seeking Fast Track routes into the trade be belittled ?

[SparksWill Fly]

I seems that resentment, ego and selfishness are at play on some construction trade related forums when ever the question of fast track courses pops up. Again on "some" forums, i get a sense of..

"I had to do such and such, so i don't even care if the fast track course was any good anyway. Or even if it's the only option some folk have because i had to go through this certain method, so therefore everybody else should have to, I don't care if my comments put folks off wanting to do well for themselves, even if fast track is their only option, because my own ego and selfishness is more important than their life"

Of course no one would ever admit that the reason they say such and such comment is because they are stroking their ego and are selfish, they will just say that it simply has to do with their concern as to the quality of workmanship that folks have after completing fast track courses. And I'm sure this is true for some, but even for those whos opinion is based solely on the quality of the workmanship of a "fast-tracker" they should still be considerate of the fact that other folks are entitled to become tradesmen just as much as they are, only they don't have the same available options you have/had in order to get there. But certain other users who post on construction forums (i'm not just picking on this forum but any tradesman related forum) I feel, post comments simply with an intent to be negative in a way that mirrors what i explained above with regards to "Resentment" "Ego" "Selfishness"

 

[High Tower]

Manda, well said hun, 100% respect, couldnt have been said better or in a fairer light!!

 

[RWJ]

Unlikely as an ex tutor of one of these company's most students had very little practical experience prior to joining the course and to be honest very little on completion (but being individuals there were some rising stars and I have keep in touch with those) but on the hole the standard of competency was shocking.

These training providers should be on rouge traders along with their students.
Only my point of view but I believe almost all persons that complete these courses and set up in business for themselves on completion of the course contravene the BS7671. As it defines a competent person as someone who possess technical knowledge,practical skills and experience for the nature of electrical work undertaken Blah blah blah. So when did they get the experience (not surely in those silly little bays clipping cable to a chip board wall).

Having seen both sides I would never employ anyone that completed one of these course unless they could show at least 12 months practical experience and even then they would be monitored very closely.

I have absolutely no problem with retraining but there has to be a better way, why has every thing got to be so rushed? Why is it all about how quick you can get your 'Part P license to print money' as one company advertises it? Surely its better to learn and digest the information, practice those new skills and develop as a tradesman. One last thing would you want someone to change the brakes on your family car after a quick demo on it then a lecture on the VOSA regulations. I think not.

Thank you PV for your posts....

It's what me and most of the others have been saying all along.

We're not knocking someone for wanting to be a spark, they're the one's most affected by this.

They're sold a £2k - £3k course and told in return they'll be FULLY QUALIFIED and earn £55k in a trade that has a massive skill shortage.
They always seem to use the 2012 Olympic site as an example of "skill shortage", not informing the poor sod doing the course that you would need a gold card and the qualifications that come with getting one.

 

[brucelee]

I agree i had 24 yrs experience on and off and the private courses are very rushed to get you through the exams

the practical part of these courses is very basic and was to easy for me some struggled and havnt gone into the industry
I went there after i was told by the jobcentre due to being a full time carer for the mrs that there is no help or training
I didnt go into it lightly

knowing it was going to cost me £4k for the course

then recently i have managed to get on a 2330 lv3 then the NVQ as i have found out that to be classed as a fully quaified electrician i would need the NVQ the 2330 I am doing out of choice to learn a better underastanding and also about motors
the inspecting and testing units of the 2330 lv3 should be no harder than the 2391 i have already done

I did the private course to get some theory and learn how to do inspecting and testing fully

these private courses are a a rip off when you look into them more fully and the qualifications that employers ask for
2330 lv2 and 3
2391
NVQ 2356
not many of these private course providers do this including the NICEIC

I should know as I have looked at them all
the only one that does the full range of courses is ABLE SKILLS dartford but the full range of courses will cost you about £10k plus the fees for stopping in there lodgings
and travel from the north to the south
they are a rip off big time and if these qualifications they are selling are not enough to be classed as a electrician then they should be forced to remove the statements that say it does as this is false advertising

everyone on the course i was with apart from 1 lady who gave up passed but all of them apart from me and 1 other had no experience in domestic or any other area
I did and was showing others how to do things

I had a apprenticeship 25 yr ago gave it up to my regret
ever since i have tried to get back on a course
and was deermined when Part P came in otherwise the only job i ever wanted to do would be over

when i applied to the private training providers I asked does this entitle me to be a electrician and the answer was yes
they dont tell you before you sign up about having to be assesed by elecsa or simlar
they dont tell you you will need
a NVQ lv 3

so the government are at fault, the C&G are at fault , the providers are at fault
as these are the ones taking the money of people what isnt easy to come by
but give you very little in return for large sums of cash

I dont regard myself as fully qualified thats the reason for wanting to do a 2330 and a NVQ 2356 lv3 then I can call myself a fully qualified electrician after 25yrs I am not worried what others think I did it for myself and my family yes I regret payng a large amount of money thinking there qwas no other option as now i have realised I could have gone to college again and got most of it funded
did the colleges tell me this NO, did the jobcentre NO
did any of the people I contacted over the last 25 yrs NO
so how can you find out if no one has the relevent info

if these courses arent good enough in empoyers eyes then they should be made to make them better so people are more competent
we all finished the course and every one of us said there should be more practical experience included and longer course to learn more
I was committed and studied every day and every exam i took got over 90% a few of them 100%
the 2391 I did of my own back at college I passed first time not because of the college because I was determined and again studied every day
some of the fully qualified working sparks i did the course with failed so it shows it depends on the individual and how determined they are to learn and do the job correctly
I was wiring 5 houses a day with the firm i worked for new build within learning how to do it within 3 months of working on site NO quals but still everyone regarded me as a sparky lol

the courses are basic but thats the fault of the providers and C&G the idiots that intoduced part p and all the rubbish that goes with it

 

[wallicio]

Excellent thread by the way..

I must admit, i am one of the "5 week wonder sparks".. however i spent 18 months studying for the course as it had been such a long time since I had read a book let alone engaged brain. 10 years on a forklift will do that for you dont get me wrong i was a clever kid, just never applied it.
Went on the test week for the domestic installers course and there were lads there with far more experience than me zipping up their installations whilst i was fumbling away with mine, took me much longer to do the practical than anyone else but when it came to the modular examinations I was passing them and they were mostly failing them. 80% pass mark multiple choice examinations and there were people there that were Mates/Repair men etc. It s not an attend and you will pass course you do have to have the knowledge all be it limited to pass the required tests.

I dont believe anyone could attend that course with no previous experience in electricity and on the practical/test week pass it after 5 weeks study. For a complete newbie its just too involved. For people with electrical experience, sure there practical was quick and on the money but if they hadnt prepared sufficiently they were not passing the theory examinations. It took me 18 months before I was confident enough to make the journey to the training centre which of course costs money/put myself up/food petrol etc which again costs money, that i dont have as i am paying out a fortune already on the course and if i fail its the same expenditure all over again. Cant afford to fail so why try and blag it in 5 weeks? There is no way I could have passed that in 5 weeks.

I dont know why Training Providers are selling it at 5 weeks as I dont believe it can be done in that time.

Another instance, Having passed the EAL VRQ Level 2 Domestic Installers Course I went on the 2382-10 for assessment, a one day event, fella there that was a time served electrician, passed his 2191 he called it years ago, been in the industry for years and is updating he wasnt even sure how to use the book let alone reference it and flunked the exam royally? With all the experience came complacency, another instance of is not a turn up and you pass course, you haveto put the work in.
I passed that one...

Now, with the qualifications I have, am I going to set up me own business like the providers of my training have said i could do? No.
Would I carry out any electrical work on me own? No.

Was I conned? Yes

But its not £7000 wasted? Im going away to do my 2392-10 in June then see if someone will give me experience, failing that do 2377 in September and look again, failing that sign up with college and do the 2330 or equivelent by then.
At least on the positive side by then I would have had over 2 years study time. And albeit, minor, 4 qualifications in the industry.

Should I have done the 2330 that to start with? Yes.

I always knew I would have to do the 2330 or equivilent. On the advce I was given which sounded pretty good at the time... If I could pass the DI course and get my 17th edition, someone would take me on and with the extra money I would be getting as a mate I could subsidise the 2330 college course. With all others lined up. Looked pretty sweet.
However In the real world it seems no-one wants to take you on unless you have done the 2330, and no "fully qualified Electrician" entertains the DI Course anyways.


Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

 

[Paul.M]

Brucelee:-

"I was committed and studied every day and every exam i took got over 90% a few of them 100%
the 2391 I did of my own back at college I passed first time not because of the college because I was determined and again studied every day
some of the fully qualified working sparks i did the course with failed so it shows it depends on the individual and how determined they are to learn and do the job correctly".

A good statement from brucelee for anyone thinking of going on any type of course.

 

[Pete B]

I think the main thing here is that the fast track courses give you a basic understanding due to the fact that they are so intensive. They only actually teach you to pass an exam, which is the priority of the course instructor so that he can advertise his pass figures to get more business. I have done shorter courses via the armed forces resettlement schemes but would not at the moment call myself a fully fledged sparky by no means! I think that these courses are a start for someone to be a sparky's mate maximum for at least a year and maybe 2. I thought at first that by doing 9 months of intensive courses where you live eat breath and poo electrical installations and formulae would be all it took, but mow realise that it took me 20 years to be an aircraft engineer and the electrical trade is no different. We all, including Electricalserv learn more about the job every day. Some more than others! I think it's about time that the part P registration companies (and they are companies believe me; they are not in this business out of the goodness of their hearts!) split the registration to grades of competence and the work that a certain competence level may do, i.e lower competence could do supervised minor works only but must be registered as passing at least level 2 C&G. The higher the competence level and after a long consolidation period (1-2 years or so) you move up the scale. I think that this would be a much fairer and safer system. Electricalserv, you know as well as i do that it wasn't that long ago that the industry was full of cowboys who didn't have a clue what they were doing (I have already witnessed this at a house in peterborough where i nearly had a heart attack at the condition of the wiring and its just by luck that the place hadn't burnt down. Thats why the part P scheme was put into place, but it does have lots of shortfalls. God i'm boring myself here! The crux of the matter is that its everybody's responsibility to work to a safe and high level of competence and quality and to tell you the truth, I don't care if thats come from someone who has done a one day course (highly unlikely) and has had to ask for someones experience and help or someone who has worked in the trade for 40 years. Its customer safety and satisfaction that are the main concerns! Pete b

 

[Careful]

I have to agree with some of both electrical serve and sparks will fly, you both have valid points to make, Me, I spent the last two years getting my qualifications, attending courses during my annual leave allowance and a LOT of bookwork. The way I see it it's like my old dad said to me when I passed my driving test in 1973 "Ok lad, you have a licence, now you will learn to drive"

 

[Mr.Ian]

I can see both sides of the fence here as belive it or not i've been working with domestic and 3 phase electrics / electronics since the 70s, I have a vast respect for electricity as over the years can see what age/ware and peoples botching can create, I personaly cannot see how someone can have respect/practical knowledge and take decisive action in relation to fault findings after a very short training course. Also to see these new vans appearing with ''fully qualified domestic installer'' makes me think about their experience. To say ''ok i've got my quals now lets get out there and start learning'' blimey !!! you're working on paying customers/public property, to me you should be 100% sure on every job you know exactly what, when, where and how. I know nearly all will but there's bound to be some that are going to get things very very wrong due to inexperience.
On the other hand these short courses are ideal for someone (like me) as i've been working with electrics as I say for 30 years and now with the majority of work needing certs I cannot continue (only do work in my own house anyway but even so), so for me it's short course time to get the quals to say I can do what I know I can do 100% safely anyway.
Please don't be offended by my post or pick on my wording/phrasing as I don't mean to offend anyone just wanted to chuck in my views on it.
Oh and before anyone asks yes I do own all the testing equipment calibrated this year and current regs (albeit the red one new green on it's way).

 

[apollo1979]

My understanding of the Domestic installer Qualification is that it was only used for say plumbers to do basic works like the wiring from a boiler, but has been seen as a loop hole by the training companys to offer as a stand alone course which allows people to take the 2-3 week course then to be able to carry out domestic only work.

I myself am about to complete my basic qualifications 2330 lv 2 & 3 17th addition and 2391 it has taken me a year to do and have been working with a few sparks from time serverd to other fast trackers

i would not dream of doing anything without the backup and supervision of an experienced spark the reason why i ahev taken these qualifications is to find a job within the industry not to start working on my own i wouldnt see myself doing this for at least 5 years if ever

i will also be doing an NVQ lv 3 when i am in a situation that i am able to.

like i said i have worked with some time served and fast track and have found some of the time served to be a little slack with regards to regs where as the fast track a more strict sticking to the letter but thats not all the time served i have worked with.

personally i dont think there is anything wrong with fast track the full course as long as it is only used to get into the industry.

 

[Mattsparks]

Difficult. I have done my apprenticeship the long route. I went back afterwards to take the 17th Edn. I paid for a 'quick' course for my 2391. And I have tried to keep up with written qualifications and on site experience. I am always learning.
I know a young lad who is as knowledgeable as me & has always worked on sites but has never had the opportunity to gain a written qualification.
He can't afford NOT to work. If I could find a route where he could just sit the exams & I could demonstrate his practical ability on site then I would pay for it - with a clear conscience. He can run a site already but can't sign the work off & does not have a single qualification to his name.
Not everything is black & white

 

[Rampage]

If feelings are this high on the short courses then why do tradeskills4u advertise on here?

 

[Guest123]

If feelings are this high on the short courses then why do tradeskills4u advertise on here?

Well, either we have sponsors or, members get charged a yearly membership fee.

 

[JD6400]

Fair enough Lenny , but it is a little akin to sleeping with the enemy / Devil , depending on how you view them .
I personally do not see a problem though , it is nice to think we are getting a little back from that side of our industry !:juggle2:
I am just glad that Rampage could make the comment in the first place .

 

[alarm man]

its not the site owner/mods that disagrees with fast tracks,its some of the members who do,its a forum for views etc,most things on here can run and run with different views to be fair,no ones saying you must obey this or that,bar bad lingo and threats its quite open and people are allowed to air their views,thats why i spend far too much time on here..:39:

 

[Energise Elec]

It's ok as far as I'm concerned because
A) gives the competent sparks more work as someone has to put it right
B) makes the competent sparks look really good and therefore increase reputation = more work, and
C) people learn that you won't get a safe and reliable installation at a cheap price!