So what’s the script with these AFFDs?

[MFS Electrical]

been doing some poking about on the 18th and came across something about AFFDs is this gonna be something else that we are going to have to sell to our customers when all they want to do is add a couple of sockets to an existing RFC? Like the inevitable I want 4 new sockets, no problem but as the latest version of the regs requires that all socket outlets are RCD protected, your going to need to add RCDs/RCBOs or do a consumer unit change oh and now it’s gonna cost you more because it’ll need AFFDs too. At which point most people reply f**k sake mate only wanted 4 sockets put in not a complete upgrade then of course dodgy Dave comes in at your back and fits the 4 sockets cause he doesn’t give 2 flying F***s and it works for ever and ever and ever. I’m all for upgrading to higher safety standards etc but customers think your taking the p***s trying to rope them into work they don’t need. Where does the madness end??!!

 

[pirate]

Fuse wire!
Well, it worked for decades and nobody died...
well, not many, anyway

 

[ipf]

Fuse wire!
Well, it worked for decades and nobody died...
well, not many, anyway

......well, you could garrotte one of these 'ideas experts' with some 100amp stuff......there's one, at least.

 

[Rpa07]

The afdd that are being proposed are an side add on to the mcb so where the mcb is one module it then becomes 2 modules and the consumer unit ways become less. I guess that they will develope them over time to be one module wide but that’ll be if they take off and the ‘Revolution’ doesn’t quash it before it takes hold.
I for one have no interest and believe there are a number of safety features that can be applied before resorting to Fandangled gadgets, the main one being good old fashioned ‘good workmanship coupled with good design’ and a sprinkling of RCD ishness!
Viva la revolution!

 

[Marvo]

For the last decade or more it's the legislation that's been driving the developement of these devices, not the other way around. The NEC in the US legislated arc fault protection requirement in domestic installations at a time when the actual devices available were extortionately priced and weren't fit for purpose.

Last time I had a run in with arc fault devices was just over 4 years ago and the imported Siemens version we tried was skittish as all hell and realistically would have caused chaos in a domestic installation. Back then there was no product options from Schnieder, Hager or even Merlin Gerin but given the fact all big manufacturers seem to have their own versions now I'd guess they've improved in their usability and ironed out most of the nuisance tripping issues.

 

[Marvo]

Just out of interest has anyone found any place they're actually for sale? I'd be interested to see what options are available and at what price....

 

[MFS Electrical]

Just out of interest has anyone found any place they're actually for sale? I'd be interested to see what options are available and at what price....

I did ask at the wholesalers today just out of interest and the blank stares were quite amusing although these are the same wholesalers who have only recently started stocking wagos and usb sockets

 

[MFS Electrical]

I’ve just realised I’ve been saying it wrong all this time not AFFDs I should’ve said AFDD maybe that’s why I got blank stares???? I’ll need to ask again tomorrow.
Just like when you walk in somewhere and they say the DB boards over there

 

[Rocboni]

I was at an 18th edition seminar last week run by Hager,

Hager have developed a 2’module afdd in partnership with Schneider, it incorporates an McB and must be used for all final circuits obviously you need an RCD in many applications so I can only see this done with an upfront RCD.

Apparently they are busy trying to develop an all in one unit (as are all the other reputable manufacturers) which is most likely going to take them back up to full hight RCBO size but 2 modules!

So your board changes are going to be twice the size!

At the moment Hager sells their afdd for £80 per unit which is going to take the price of consumer unit changes up past £1k.

The regs state they are recommended to be installed in all sleeping accommodation, flammable stores, there was another one but it’s slipped my mind. So it is up to you whether you fit them but if you don’t it’s on you, many designers are putting them in the spec but it’s left to the contractor to take decide and then it’s on them not the designer.

 

[Spoon]

I was at an 18th edition seminar last week run by Hager,

Hager have developed a 2’module afdd in partnership with Schneider, it incorporates an McB and must be used for all final circuits obviously you need an RCD in many applications so I can only see this done with an upfront RCD.

Apparently they are busy trying to develop an all in one unit (as are all the other reputable manufacturers) which is most likely going to take them back up to full hight RCBO size but 2 modules!

So your board changes are going to be twice the size!

At the moment Hager sells their afdd for £80 per unit which is going to take the price of consumer unit changes up past £1k.

The regs state they are recommended to be installed in all sleeping accommodation, flammable stores, there was another one but it’s slipped my mind. So it is up to you whether you fit them but if you don’t it’s on you, many designers are putting them in the spec but it’s left to the contractor to take decide and then it’s on them not the designer.

So as I posting in the other thread. Post #18
Me being of limited intelligence... what do they mean by 'recommending'?
Have you got to do a 'risk assessment' if you choose not to follow this 'recommendation'?
What if there is a fire and it goes to court. They say that the regs 'recommend' AFDD... why were they not fitted?

'Recommended' pretty much means 'Compulsory' in all cases.

So I bet all the people who had tripping issues with dual RCD's and changed to RCBO's are happy they did before we move back to dual RCD's.

 

[Midwest]

I see that Eaton have or are developing a 3 module device, that incorporates MCB, RCCB & AFDD.

Their speal says;

'The AFDD+ provides a full protection solution against electrical ignited fires
The AFDD+ provides a full protection solution in one device that enhances consumers’ peace of mind against fires ignited by electrical installations, while adding additional comfort. This all-in-one device gives the consumer full protection in his home and enables the installer to offer and install products that comply with new codes and standards'.

'Mostly these devices are intended for residential applications (bedrooms, nurseries), hospitals, assisted living, nursery schools, where the residents might have difficulties to evacuate, because they are immobile, sleeping or unaware of a the threat. As well Shopping centres, airports, train stations such applications, where large groups of people have to be evacuated in case of fire. It is recommended to use an AFDD as well in buildings where valuable assents need to be protected, like a museum or a library'.

Seems they are hedging their bets, as to where the IET will be 'recommending' the use of AFDD's.

Still only a few weeks to go, before all is revealed, or not in the IET's history of these reg changes.

 

[Rocboni]

So as I posting in the other thread. Post #18
Me being of limited intelligence... what do they mean by 'recommending'?
Have you got to do a 'risk assessment' if you choose not to follow this 'recommendation'?
What if there is a fire and it goes to court. They say that the regs 'recommend' AFDD... why were they not fitted?

'Recommended' pretty much means 'Compulsory' in all cases.

So I bet all the people who had tripping issues with dual RCD's and changed to RCBO's are happy they did before we move back to dual RCD's.

Sorry not read the other thread, I agree I’m just passing on what the guy said, that’s exactly the point the designers don’t want to make the decision to omit these devises so the onus isn’t on them, and quite rightly so. It will most likely become must be in future amendments.

Aging your right my argument was we’ve been recommending full rcbo boards to landlords etc and replacing such and now we are going to have to tell them they need another change to incorporate afdd, if they say no then it’s in them.

No regs in regard to safety have never been removed however the regs regarding earth rods have taken a back seat for now!

 

[Spoon]

Sorry not read the other thread

No need to apologise mate, its a long thread..... and I whinge in that one as well...

 

[Lucien Nunes]

Lots of IET-bashing going on here again. 'Lining coffers', 'justifying some crap', ' "experts" '.

We only have electricity because learned engineers and scientists developed the principles, and hard-nosed industrialists worked out how to turn electrical installations based on those principles into profit so that manufacturers could tool up and start making stuff in earnest.

Now that we have electricity, we keep on inventing new stuff to do with it and new ways to control it. We can't control DIY Dave - the IET isn't a legislator - but we can invent, test, refine, exploit technology to limit the damage he can do, and at soime point these ideas filter through into the standards. If you've ever tried writing engineering standards you'll know it's not easy to please all the people all the time. If you haven't, give the guys who do a break. Without people like them we'd all still be burning whale oil.

</rant>

 

[Octopus]

^^ The IET could easily not "recommend" -

My money is on these manufacturers canvasing the IET to such an extent that they agreed to specify them

And the winner is ..................... big business

I'm looking forward to telling Mr & Mrs Jones that their new fuseboard will be costing over £1,000 ...................... NOT

 

[Lucien Nunes]

Oh sure, but there's a symbiosis there. For manufacturers to invest in R&D they need to know that someone will specify the finished product. If it's a safety-oriented product and no-one gives two hoots about steadily raising the bar for safety and performance, it'll never reach market, so everything eventually slides down to the lowest common denominator.

The IET won't be persuaded by commercial arguments alone, there will be some technical merit of some sort in there. Maybe it'll come of age, maybe it'll fall by the wayside. But better to have the development and introduction of new technology co-ordinated by a body of professionals, than a bunch of salesmen from switchgear companies hawking their latest gadget around to your door.