Socket and switch heights

[telectrix]

totally wrong. it's not a new build, so part m does not apply.

 

[Strima]

I'm not picking a fight, just trying to make sense of it. Would you describe it as a new installation, addition or alteration? It will need an EIC on completion, which would need stated departures, limitations and possibly risk assessments if complete compliance is not met.

That is my thinking and I welcome clarification if I am wrong.

On a rewire there should be no departures or limitations.

This is an alteration.

As this is domestic then the only risk assessment you'll need is for overvoltage protection in the 18th edition.

In domestic you would be very hard pushed not to be fully compliant.

 

[Octopus]

A "new" installation is a new build .........................

A rewire is an alteration ...................

 

[Marcus Vaughan]

Going back to original poster, this quote might make you feel more confident,

"The guidance given in Approved Document M applies to all new dwellings. Note that if a dwelling is rewired, there is no requirement to provide the measures described above (refers to heights of switches and socket outlets) providing that upon completion the building is no worse in terms of the level of compliance with the other Parts of Schedule 1 to the Building Regulations".

That was taken from the IET's Electricians Guides to the Building Regulations. Pretty clear cut.

The way I see it is, for an existing dwelling,

1) Don't make it worse. (eg - don't start adding sockets into skirting boards - why would anyone do that?).
2) If a major refurbishment is going on, that is to say that every wall is back to brick and every socket/switch etc and backbox is either new or requires re-locating - with a full scope of re-plastering planned, then it's difficult to justify NOT complying with Part M. (This maybe my personal opinion - but I'm sure I have read that somewhere - just can't find it right now - anyone?)
3) If the locations of the sockets/switches do not comply with Part M, but are otherwise in sensible/safe location (eg not over a draining board/sink and not too close to a floor,worktop, hob etc.), and if minimum disruption to paint and plaster is needed, then you can re-use them without fear of non-compliance.
4) Any new building work such as extensions or loft/garage conversions must comply with Part M (and other building regs).

Hope this helps.

 

[Octopus]

The way I see it is, for an existing dwelling,

1) Don't make it worse. (eg - don't start adding sockets into skirting boards - why would anyone do that?).

Agree

2) If a major refurbishment is going on, that is to say that every wall is back to brick and every socket/switch etc and back box is either new or requires re-locating - with a full scope of re-plastering planned, then it's difficult to justify NOT complying with Part M. (This maybe my personal opinion - but I'm sure I have read that somewhere - just can't find it right now - anyone?)

Disagree - its not a new build

3) If the locations of the sockets/switches do not comply with Part M, but are otherwise in sensible/safe location (eg not over a draining board/sink and not too close to a floor,worktop, hob etc.), and if minimum disruption to paint and plaster is needed, then you can re-use them without fear of non-compliance.

Common sense applies

4) Any new building work such as extensions or loft/garage conversions must comply with Part M (and other building regs).

Disagree .......................

Hope this helps.

My comments in itallic above

 

[oracle]

Going back to original poster, this quote might make you feel more confident,

"The guidance given in Approved Document M applies to all new dwellings. Note that if a dwelling is rewired, there is no requirement to provide the measures described above (refers to heights of switches and socket outlets) providing that upon completion the building is no worse in terms of the level of compliance with the other Parts of Schedule 1 to the Building Regulations".

That was taken from the IET's Electricians Guides to the Building Regulations. Pretty clear cut.

The way I see it is, for an existing dwelling,

1) Don't make it worse. (eg - don't start adding sockets into skirting boards - why would anyone do that?).
2) If a major refurbishment is going on, that is to say that every wall is back to brick and every socket/switch etc and backbox is either new or requires re-locating - with a full scope of re-plastering planned, then it's difficult to justify NOT complying with Part M. (This maybe my personal opinion - but I'm sure I have read that somewhere - just can't find it right now - anyone?)
3) If the locations of the sockets/switches do not comply with Part M, but are otherwise in sensible/safe location (eg not over a draining board/sink and not too close to a floor,worktop, hob etc.), and if minimum disruption to paint and plaster is needed, then you can re-use them without fear of non-compliance.
4) Any new building work such as extensions or loft/garage conversions must comply with Part M (and other building regs).

Hope this helps.

Thank you, that puts it nicely into context.

 

[Octopus]

Thank you, that puts it nicely into context.

But its not correct.

 

[Marcus Vaughan]

My comments in itallic above

Hi Murdoch,
Thanks for commenting - I always appreciate that - and keen to learn.
I have no issue with your disagreement with point 2, as it was just my personal preference.
Point 4 though - I got from The Electricians Guide to the Building Regs;

Page 30 - Section 2.1.2.2 "Building Works"

"Additions or extensions to a building must comply with the Building Regulations. If wiring is carried out in an extension to an existing building, the wiring to the extension must comply not only with Part P but also with all the other appropriate requirements of the Building Regulations."

I know its only a guide, and I'll admit I am struggling to draw the same information out of the Part P document itself, but still fear that if I don't comply with this in extensions the I'll be pulled by the LABC?

 

[Octopus]

Hi Murdoch,
Thanks for commenting - I always appreciate that - and keen to learn.
I have no issue with your disagreement with point 2, as it was just my personal preference.
Point 4 though - I got from The Electricians Guide to the Building Regs;

Page 30 - Section 2.1.2.2 "Building Works"

"Additions or extensions to a building must comply with the Building Regulations. If wiring is carried out in an extension to an existing building, the wiring to the extension must comply not only with Part P but also with all the other appropriate requirements of the Building Regulations."

I know its only a guide, and I'll admit I am struggling to draw the same information out of the Part P document itself, but still fear that if I don't comply with this in extensions the I'll be pulled by the LABC?

But Part M says extensions can be in keeping with existing installations ...............

Just imagine an extension to a 1950's property with the lounge growing by say 3m - sockets touching the skirting board in the old bit and 450mm off the floor at the other end ............. that's just daft.

So as usual the VERY POORLY written regs - YES, DCLG - that's you AGAIN ............... send confusion into the industry.......

 

[Strima]

If I was having an extension done and I employed an electrician who placed the sockets and switches at different heights to the rest of the property he/she would be back to place them at heights matching the rest of the house.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Part M is an attempt to standardise buildings.
The prescribed heights are for where the end user is unknown.
Where the end user is known, such as in a rewire, extension or new build for a client who intends to live in the property, the heights quoted in Part M are superseded by the wishes of the end user.
If the end user wants the heights quoted in Part M, then fine, if they want them higher, or lower, then again fine.

 

[Marcus Vaughan]

But Part M says extensions can be in keeping with existing installations ...............

Just imagine an extension to a 1950's property with the lounge growing by say 3m - sockets touching the skirting board in the old bit and 450mm off the floor at the other end ............. that's just daft.

So as usual the VERY POORLY written regs - YES, DCLG - that's you AGAIN ............... send confusion into the industry.......

Agree with the 'daft'.
Agree with the confusion!

I think I'll have a proper read of Part M.

 

[Marcus Vaughan]

If I was having an extension done and I employed an electrician who placed the sockets and switches at different heights to the rest of the property he/she would be back to place them at heights matching the rest of the house.

Really?
That's interesting.
I agree it would look daft in Murdoch's example - but if it was in a different room and therefore you could not see sockets and switches at different heights at the same time.....

 

[Octopus]

Agree with the 'daft'.
Agree with the confusion!

I think I'll have a proper read of Part M.

Tell me if its crystal clear !!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Strima]

Really?
That's interesting.
I agree it would look daft in Murdoch's example - but if it was in a different room and therefore you could not see sockets and switches at different heights at the same time.....

My house, my opinion. And yes, I would notice.