The future of Part P in question?

[accordfire]

My emphasis should really have been on publicity to educate the public, surely there aren't many that haven't heard of CORGI or Gas Safe now?

It's taken years but people seem to understand that if gas is involved then a member of the above must be selected.

Maybe we could have such a system, almost licensing, that's what I'd like to see.

It's likely to be the only way we will ever get any sort of compliance. Sadly, because of decisions taken previously, it will also take years, and millions to set up, assuming legislation to do so ever gets passed.

The problem is, unlike gas, we've gone so far down a route in a different direction from this, that getting back there will also be a logistical nightmare.

How, effectively, do you enable such a system without penalising perfectly competent electricians who, for no other reason than cost, have not either taken some of their exams, or signed up to one of the various recognition or approvals schemes, yet remain more than competent to carry out work?

Who will bear the cost of the licencing scheme? Are we proposing some sort of mandatory JIB here? It's the closest mechanism to licencing we have.

Now, I know that if every decent sparks in the UK put their paws in their pockets, we could probably find a few quid each toward something that had a decent purpose, and worked for us.....but, why should we? It already costs us all thousands just to be an electrician each year.

All that said, I suspect, sooner or later, that licencing will be the way.

 

[brucelee]

If they want you to be a member of a scam why do they make you jump through hoops and have to go through LABC first, who when asked tell you incorrect information with regards who is supposed to inspect and test it
and the biggest scam is for them to say it costs £190 to send a ex joiner or similar out to inspect electrical work
and they may have to send another electrician to inspect and test your work even though you are qualified especially all the guys who have more than enough experience and qualifications

the only time a person should have to notify building control is if they are DIY or have no qualifications

 

[Markc]

Unless the issue is addressed at the grass root level I can't see any scheme along the lines of PP working.

We've all seen it, New consumer unit installed two or three weeks ago, No bonding, no cert and no PP. Customer not aware and not interested either! On further inspection no CPC loop on kitchen ring, no cpc in lighting circuit and 7.5Kw shower wired in 2.5 from pullcord to shower unit. 6mm at C/U. OK lighting circuit could be left but all the rest should of been addressed. So who's the sparky who do it? Someone out of the free ads who could get there the next day!

In my opinion its got to go by the way side as it doesn't work for those who do give a damn! Those who don't..well they don't give a stuff anyway and never will.

 

[jaresquire]

"the only time a person should have to notify building control is if they are DIY or have no qualifications"
I second that, brucelee!

 

[pushrod]

If they want you to be a member of a scam why do they make you jump through hoops and have to go through LABC first, who when asked tell you incorrect information with regards who is supposed to inspect nad test it
ad the biggest scam is for them to say it costs £190 to send a ex joiner or similar out to inspect electrical work
and they may have to send another electricia to inspect and test your work even though you are qualified especially all the guys who have more than enough experience and qualifications

the only time a person should have to notify building control is if they are DIY or have no qualifications

Or in my case £176 to inspect the plans for moving a socket in the kitchen . No one minds paying a small administrative charge but present LABC charges just encourage people to break the rules and say "well i got an electrician to do it - i thought he was going to notify it - no sorry i can't remember his name"

 

[Jimmy Boy]

Disgraceful charges, but without a final sign off on the property where's the options ?
A full PIR on sale ?

ATB S

 

[pushrod]

It was always my understanding that electrical work carried out to bs7671 included testing and inspection, whats all this 2391 all the time these days??????? 2391 used to be a more in depth knowledge of testing and inspecting but these days people seem to think you shouldnt even know what a a test probe is without having prior done some sort of college course- more expense(sighs)

but at least with a course you prove your competence once, in the exam - rather than being taxed £400+ every year by your scheme provider. You pass your driving test once ... not every year!

 

[pushrod]

Disgraceful charges, but without a final sign off on the property where's the options ?
A full PIR on sale ?

ATB S

House Insurance demanding a 10 yearly PIR from qualified person to continue insuring. Bearing that in mind the householder would dam well make sure that work was done by qualified/experienced people not just some chap from the pub. Your car insurance is invalid without an MOT, most people MOT their vehicles. It is unlikely that the sort of people who choose to live outside the law would own there own houses - the onus would then be on the landlord.
I doubt that too many people who own there own houses would risk their biggest asset by not insuring it.

 

[accordfire]

House Insurance demanding a 10 yearly PIR from qualified person to continue insuring. Bearing that in mind the householder would dam well make sure that work was done by qualified/experienced people not just some chap from the pub. Your car insurance is invalid without an MOT, most people MOT their vehicles. It is unlikely that the sort of people who choose to live outside the law would own there own houses - the onus would then be on the landlord.
I doubt that too many people who own there own houses would risk there biggest asset by not insuring it.

No, they probably wouldn't, but your idealism is showing here..........

Realistically, if some geezer in the pub says he can supply the relevant paperwork for you to pass to your insurer for £50 or it's going to cost you £350 to get a full PIR, what are you going to do if you're fairly sure the £50 will get you by?

That was always the problem with MOT's too, until they started barcoding/databasing them - yet, there are still ways around that.

Anyone with half decent photoshop skills, and a clue about what figures are meant to be in the boxes will make a mint.

All these ideas make a fundamental mistake - in assuming that the homeowner actually give a damn WHO qualifies us, or WHAT bits of paper we pass on after the job. Most of them just want the shiny new light, or extra socket, and someone to bitch when it doesn't work right.

THAT, I am afraid, is a major part of what we need to overcome, as much as the scheme providers and legislators.

 

[Jimmy Boy]

Dude a great idea one I share but however we are ***** on that score
An MOT or a PIR is a day of issue, it means SFA the next day, you kerb the car MOT invalid..You break an accessory PIR invalid you get my drift, I suggest all properties are brought up to 17th on sale nice earner for sparks...safe for the the new occupants

 

[telectrix]

House Insurance demanding a 10 yearly PIR from qualified person to continue insuring. Bearing that in mind the householder would dam well make sure that work was done by qualified/experienced people not just some chap from the pub. Your car insurance is invalid without an MOT, most people MOT their vehicles. It is unlikely that the sort of people who choose to live outside the law would own there own houses - the onus would then be on the landlord.
I doubt that too many people who own there own houses would risk their biggest asset by not insuring it.

good point, pushrod. the problem again is policing. without all sparks undertaking PIRs being registered like MOT garages.

 

[pushrod]

No, they probably wouldn't, but your idealism is showing here..........

Realistically, if some geezer in the pub says he can supply the relevant paperwork for you to pass to your insurer for £50 or it's going to cost you £350 to get a full PIR, what are you going to do if you're fairly sure the £50 will get you by?

That was always the problem with MOT's too, until they started barcoding/databasing them - yet, there are still ways around that.

Anyone with half decent photoshop skills, and a clue about what figures are meant to be in the boxes will make a mint.

All these ideas make a fundamental mistake - in assuming that the homeowner actually give a damn WHO qualifies us, or WHAT bits of paper we pass on after the job. Most of them just want the shiny new light, or extra socket, and someone to bitch when it doesn't work right.

.

There will always be some people who try and get round the law, but i would think it would be a pretty stupid person who knowingly invalidated their house insurance (risking their biggest asset), especially when you know how any insurance company will use any excuse not to pay up. As you say centrally held data bases have largely removed the guy who would sell you an mot cert.
The other thing that is needed is education through advertising. 35 years ago lots of people would drive after drinking - now days the percentages are much smaller, why? because of public awareness campaigns. The same has happened with gas safety - even the wife asked to see the repair man's corgi card a few years back!

 

[telectrix]

a step in the right direction would be restricting sales of electrical equipment. we already have ID age requirements for cigs. and alcohol. why not have all qualified, competent sparks carry ID card proving that they are qualified/competent, similar to a JIB card. No card, No Sale.

 

[accordfire]

There will always be some people who try and get round the law, but i would think it would be a pretty stupid person who knowingly invalidated their house insurance (risking their biggest asset), especially when you know how any insurance company will use any excuse not to pay up. As you say centrally held data bases have largely removed the guy who would sell you an mot cert.
The other thing that is needed is education through advertising. 35 years ago lots of people would drive after drinking - now days the percentages are much smaller, why? because of public awareness campaigns. The same has happened with gas safety - even the wife asked to see the repair man's corgi card a few years back!

Yeah, you're right fella - I was making the same point not a day ago too. If it isn't done right though, people will buy dodgy certs, just the way they used to with car MOTs though. They already begrudge paying the insurance rates, and further costs especially in this climate, will cause more and more to fall outside the scope of the insurance, at least from time to time.

Education of the public is good, as id better policing of the industry, as is a scheme which works for everyone - but again, who will pay for it? Bet your bottom dollar it'll come down to us, on top of everything else we have to pay just to breathe.

 

[accordfire]

a step in the right direction would be restricting sales of electrical equipment. we already have ID age requirements for cigs. and alcohol. why not have all qualified, competent sparks carry ID card proving that they are qualified/competent, similar to a JIB card. No card, No Sale.

Good idea, except you'll have every last wholesaler up in arms, and dead set against you.

They couldn't care who they sell to, so long as they make a profit - their business is simply to sell, not to police who they sell to.

Sad, but true. Do that, and they'll (rightly) claim their isn't enough business to go around.

And by the time you add in all the sheds too - that's a big fight, with a lot of cash behind it.