The future of Part P in question?

[spsparks]

bloody expensive sticker!

compulsory sticker too

 

[telectrix]

do to cover a couple of dents anyway

 

[m25maintenance]

2391? i disagree. i dont av it. i only av 2330 level 2 & 3 and 17th which is a bit of paper that says i can read a red book. i dont design installations. i do basic domestic jobs. new circuits, extended circuits cu changes. i follow all the guidlines so do i need 2391. ??????

 

[millwall ken]

and what would they deem as qualified? I am C+G 2360 (2 nights a week for 3 years) and 17th edition update qualified, but as i have not passed an AM2 or an NVQ3 aswell, the JIB will only give me an Adult Trainee card when i do my CSCS.

Thats because in the JIB's eyes you ain't worth a ****. I'm in same boat, and despite TWO recommendations from NIC registered and approved sparkies, they only gave me a poxy trainee card. My arguement was why ask for a ******* recommendation then....

 

[sixfingers]

Thats why we are asked for 500 quid every year and given a sticker to put on the van.............

Your given your sticker? nic want paying extra for their stickers! lol

 

[Phil]

i don`t use electrafix after they stuffed me up on an important order they promised to have in for sat morning when i popped in on the friday afternoon. i paid in full and they said they would ring when it came in. i went in tuesday morning to get my cash back. the guy who dealt with my so called order never put it through. not an apology or anything

 

[chiefengineer]

Couldn't disagree more. Not all householders have no idea of wiring. Take myself. I've joined this forum to see what I have to do to be able to re-wire a house I'm renovating. Now I'm a Chief Engineer on a high voltage DSV. 19Mw eight generator 6.6KVA. I service HV electrical equipment, run 3Ph, trouble shoot variable frequency drives and deal with highly complex PLC CAN-bus control systems. And I can't put a socket into my own shed. I probably know more about electrical theory than most but cannot legally do even simple tasks. I do agree that there are some numb nuts out there who struggle to wire a plug, but surely "Competence," should be the deciding factor. I can do an electrical course that takes a few weeks and get part P but instead did 4 years plus ten years experience and three college stints to get fully qualified but I'm deemed to be unable to do a simple task in my own home. Would it not be better to have a system that assesses your knowledge based on your previous experience? I appreciate that electricians need work but alienating householders is not it. Most people don't know that they can't do very much and if they did along with potential fines then there could easily be a general public backlash. Imagine going to a house to do a job that a householder deems to be simple but has to call in an electrician at high cost because Big Brother says so? Electricians would end up in the same category as bankers, solicitors and tax inspectors.

 

[telectrix]

i appreciate your thoughts as stated. the whole system needs reviewing as you say, with a whole lot of knowledge and competence , without being part pee approved, legally you are not allowed to do a simple job in your own home, yet a fresh out of a 4 week course with less than a tenth of your knowledge and experience can legally do same job. bit like keystone cops or laurel and hardy.

 

[millwall ken]

Couldn't disagree more. Not all householders have no idea of wiring. Take myself. I've joined this forum to see what I have to do to be able to re-wire a house I'm renovating. Now I'm a Chief Engineer on a high voltage DSV. 19Mw eight generator 6.6KVA. I service HV electrical equipment, run 3Ph, trouble shoot variable frequency drives and deal with highly complex PLC CAN-bus control systems. And I can't put a socket into my own shed. I probably know more about electrical theory than most but cannot legally do even simple tasks. I do agree that there are some numb nuts out there who struggle to wire a plug, but surely "Competence," should be the deciding factor. I can do an electrical course that takes a few weeks and get part P but instead did 4 years plus ten years experience and three college stints to get fully qualified but I'm deemed to be unable to do a simple task in my own home. Would it not be better to have a system that assesses your knowledge based on your previous experience? I appreciate that electricians need work but alienating householders is not it. Most people don't know that they can't do very much and if they did along with potential fines then there could easily be a general public backlash. Imagine going to a house to do a job that a householder deems to be simple but has to call in an electrician at high cost because Big Brother says so? Electricians would end up in the same category as bankers, solicitors and tax inspectors.

Thats the whole problem with the ridiculous set up mate - These protection rackets, and thats what the NICEIC, ELECSA, KGB etc etc really are; should be out there educating the public as to the importance of schemes like part pee. They should be fighting tooth and nail to prevent any Tom, Dick and Abdul from becoming registered as well, but will they? All they want to do is to take our money. I'm glad that I tend to stick to commercial. Stick welcome aboard anyway.

 

[SimpleSimon]

I think as a collection lads we've nearly got it sussed.

Personally the three main things to stop joe public.
1. All electricians must be licensed. You have to carry a licence to trade. To get a licence you must be converse in 17th edition upto date qualification. 16th? Take your 17th to get any further. Want to carry out PIRs? 2391. Want to carry aspects of commercial or industrial? 2330. (forgive me if I'm wrong on that.) whatever area you want to cover you will be licences accordingly and like a driving licence these will expire and when you want to renew you have to update your qualifications.

2.take all materials off the shelf of the public. You want to get your house rewired?you need to find a licensed electrician who has to produce their card at the wholesaler to get their materials.

3. Advertise. We need to be protected by the big boys who we pay heaps of money to for that hopeful privalige. Advertise plenty of horror DIY stories of death, fire and paying insurance premiums through the snot of your nose. Scare tactics.

As for the cowboys, yeah they will always be there that's a fact of life we live with. But we can minimise these people by really relaying the dangers of a bad job.

 

[john25]

What I can't stand about Part P is the fact that you have to pay for it every god damn year it's basically a schemes way to rip you off .It should be the same as the 17th edition were you have to update every time new regulations are released

 

[tonys]

Part Pee just feeds the freeloaders, those who want to regulate and carry out unproductive work.

As far as it goes with building control they don't have the time or money to go around chasing after people who ain't part of the Part Pee system. But what I have heard and do know is some building control departments are happy for an electrician with the 17th edition and 2391 to put a cert on the work.

The 17th edition is just a course to prove someone can reference a book, written exams such as the old 2360/1/2 and the 2391 and the practical AM1 an AM2 do carry a lot more clout imo.

Not knocking anyone because Ive worked with plenty of decent sparks over the years who had never passed an electrical exam etc.

At the end of the day the domestic game is almost shot, all then big players such as British Gas are flooding the market with home care packages. They have almost took the Domestic Heating Market by storm and don't forget British Gas own Gas Safe and have all the data knowing what properties require what works.

Ive also been told British Gas have also been involved in decent homes work as well.

The bigger picture involves Government and they have basically sold people a dream with this Part Pee, the same as the HIPS Pack, all those people who spent ££££'s doing the courses and now they are out of work.

The whole lot is a con, get qualified and work for an agency or a big company because that's where its all heading.

That's my honest opinion on things.

Tony

 

[john25]

Part Pee just feeds the freeloaders, those who want to regulate and carry out unproductive work.

As far as it goes with building control they don't have the time or money to go around chasing after people who ain't part of the Part Pee system. But what I have heard and do know is some building control departments are happy for an electrician with the 17th edition and 2391 to put a cert on the work.

The 17th edition is just a course to prove someone can reference a book, written exams such as the old 2360/1/2 and the 2391 and the practical AM1 an AM2 do carry a lot more clout imo.

Not knocking anyone because Ive worked with plenty of decent sparks over the years who had never passed an electrical exam etc.

At the end of the day the domestic game is almost shot, all then big players such as British Gas are flooding the market with home care packages. They have almost took the Domestic Heating Market by storm and don't forget British Gas own Gas Safe and have all the data knowing what properties require what works.

Ive also been told British Gas have also been involved in decent homes work as well.

The bigger picture involves Government and they have basically sold people a dream with this Part Pee, the same as the HIPS Pack, all those people who spent ££££'s doing the courses and now they are out of work.

The whole lot is a con, get qualified and work for an agency or a big company because that's where its all heading.

That's my honest opinion on things.

Tony

Yes but the 17th Edition Course is about What you Can & Can't do in Installation requirements and in essence is no different from applying for Part P why should we have to pay 500+ Quid every year just for someone to come out and tell us that our work is OK as far as I know the 2391 Qual shows that someone is Competent enough to inspect/Test and rectify work in Domestic installations and the fact that it only has a 40% Pass rate nation wide should prove an electricians Competancy to provide/inspect and test a Domestic installation.

 

[accordfire]

as far as I know the 2391 Qual shows that someone is Competent enough to inspect/Test and rectify work in Domestic installations and the fact that it only has a 40% Pass rate nation wide should prove an electricians Competancy to provide/inspect and test a Domestic installation.

This was one of the primary reasons we have so far decided to steer clear of domestic work. It is my argument too that passing 2391 strictly puts you above the likely skill level of an inspector from Building Control in any case, although one would presume that scheme assessors have, at least, passed 2391 themselves anyway.

The point of a Part P scheme, to me, would be to alleviate the need to carry a qualification like 2391 oneself. In this way the end user would be assured that the scheme member is working to those standards, whilst not necessarily holding a qualification showing direct knowledge of that level of skill - an independent verification, if you will, that the skills are there, albeit the qualification isn't.

It's all a big gooey mess, to be honest, and it just serves to set me off on the role of "approved schemes" versus what most of them actually do.

 

[IQ Electrical]

The point of a Part P scheme, to me, would be to alleviate the need to carry a qualification like 2391 oneself. In this way the end user would be assured that the scheme member is working to those standards, whilst not necessarily holding a qualification showing direct knowledge of that level of skill - an independent verification, if you will, that the skills are there, albeit the qualification isn't.

I agree but having seen and read descriptions of the technical assessments from all of the scheme providers, I think you'd have to have a lethal installation before you'd fail!

Imagine if your driving examiner had already been paid £500 by you before your test with the promise of a further annual payment of £500 !

Oh and an extra £300 a year if you take the 'three-point turn' package as an extra (think PIR).

 

[Des 56]

I think you'd have to have a lethal installation before you'd fail!

).

You are being more stringent with the entry criteria than the schemes IQ

A lethal installation wouldn't be a stumbling block when a regular couple of hundred quid and a new member to up the total is the choice


On a serious note
Has anybody ever heard of anyone who has been turned down by any scheme ?
It would be interesting to know the scores,because I haven't

 

[IQ Electrical]

You are being more stringent with the entry criteria than the schemes IQ

A lethal installation wouldn't be a stumbling block when a regular couple of hundred quid and a new member to up the total is the choice


On a serious note
Has anybody ever heard of anyone who has been turned down by any scheme ?
It would be interesting to know the scores,because I haven't

From the Part P Monitoring Report http://www.communities.gov.uk/documents/planningandbuilding/pdf/734995.pdf :

Most scheme operators provide the contractor with written notice of any
non-conformities and require that they are resolved within a certain time
period, eg 45 days (depending on their severity). In the case of a major nonconformity,
this is likely to require the inspector to revisit the site, which
usually incurs additional costs. If the contractor fails to rectify the defect their
registration may be suspended and they could be locked out of the
notification system until the matter is resolved. In extreme cases of failure and
where subsequent rectification action has not been followed, then the​

registered installer can be removed from the scheme.


I wonder what constitutes 'a major non-conformity'?