Thermo dynamics for hot water that runs off atmosphere

[The Solar King]

For info, STA response on Thermodynamics in RHI
Q 10
Do you agree with the proposed eligible technologies set out above? Are there others that should be considered for inclusion?

So-called “thermodynamic solar panels” which use a refrigerant in the solar panel should be considered for inclusion, subject to reinstatement to the MCS scheme. However, these technologies should be supported by the RHI as an air-source heat pump, since the product is essentially an air-source heat pump with the evaporator being the panel rather than a fan-blower unit.

 

[Gavin A]

I said something similar, though I think I suggested they needed their own category due to the extra test data required for COP with solar input, wind speed etc. plus the F-gas cert and the need to actually have working at heights, roofing experience etc.

 

[peteheat]

but were does the 55 degrees come from to heat the water on a cold night

The immersion heater that can't be switched off by either the home owner or the installer in fact if the immersion breaks the system stops working altogether.

I don't know where the figure of -15 came from, it automatically switches off the heat pump at 1 > 2c and reverts to the immersion.

The big problem is they are not being sold with any degree of honesty and in the UK at grossly inflated prices.

The story about switching on at 8c can not apply to the energias system because they call for the system to be pre-heated using the immersion to a minimum of 30c when commissioning the system.

One thing the MCS action has shown that is very worrying is the panel passed the Solar Keymark test with water as the transfer medium, basically fit a standard radiator painted black and it will achieve the Solar Keymark.

 

[peteheat]

they create heat do they?

best write a rebuttal paper to Einstein et al then as he and the whole of physics since have obviously got things wrong.

but yes they work on the vapour compression cycle and as such are heatpumps (and AFAIK nobody on this thread has disputed that), and as shown on this diagram, they absorb heat from the atmosphere in the liquid>vapour phase, which is then raised to a more useful temperature via the compressor.

Do you mean Thermodynamic Laws formulated by the French physicist Carnot theories?

 

[jason121]

[h=3]How it Works[/h]

The sun isn’t always out. In winter the days have an average of 7 hours of light with only 3 to 4 hours of sun which constitutes a constraint on the operation of traditional solar panels. ENERGIE Thermodynamic Solar Panels have managed to overcome this constraint, making it possible to raise the temperature of the water with great efficiency and major energy savings on rainy days and even at night. One of the innovative aspects lies in the fact that an ecological fluid passes through the solar panel at a temperature of -20ºC, thereby allowing the collection of solar energy and greater absorption of atmospheric energy, in other words from the sun, rain and wind, 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. The ecological liquid which circulates on a closed circuit at negative temperatures collects the heat at the solar panels and then releases it into the water by way of a heat exchanger. This facility, whereby we combine technology with a law of Nature, demonstrates the potential of ENERGIE solar systems and that they really work. This were my info came from, if its true, in what your saying, they are a waste of money.

 

[Gavin A]

Do you mean Thermodynamic Laws formulated by the French physicist Carnot theories?

These laws?

More specifically, the First Law encompasses several principles:

• The law of conservation of energy.

This states that energy can be neither created nor destroyed.

You can raise the temperature of a gas in a fixed volume via a compressor, but you can't actually create energy itself, that has to come from somewhere in the first place, namely the panel extracting heat energy from the air and sun.

 

[jason121]

what would be the temp from the expansion valve and suction line

 

[peteheat]

what would be the temp from the expansion valve and suction line

They did manage to con their way onto the Irish grant scheme for renewables, at the time the grant for heat pumps was much higher than that for solar.

So we investigated why not call it what it was and qualify for the higher grant?

The consultants we hired came back with a report that basically said the COP was too low to qualify which meant the data supplied to us by the manufacturer was not "Complete" or inaccurate.

The system will work by absorbing any heat around the panel (top and back) which is why some claim the panel is actually twice it's size.

Too much smoke and mirrors being used for our liking so we took the consultants advice and left them, we do however advertise them simply because they are great for bringing visitors to our web site, we also price them for all to see at less than €5,000.00 including VAT supplied and fitted using a stainless steel cylinder (not mild steel) and with a coil for a second heat source.

If we were to sell them at that price we would be making a respectable profit not just a days pay.

 

[SibertSolar]

Always interesting to see such thorough discussions on new technologies, very interesting thread. Just spotted that Ecoskies are offering training courses on thermodynamic "solar" panels.....have they provided any input here as yet? According to their article in the current REI magazine, although "installers will need an F-Gas engineer to commission the system, the vast majority of work, once understood, can be carried out by any solar thermal installer already qualified to a standard recognised by MCS"

 

[Vegelen]

It automatically switches off the heat pump at 1 > 2c and reverts to the immersion.

Thus, Thermodynamic Solar Panels are currently very expensive, take an unrealistic

time to economically pay back and during periods of extreme cold weather,

UK householders will be saddelled with increased electric bills to heat their water.

 

[The Solar King]

We are still going round in circles on this. The theory of their working has been ably shown and discussed in this thread. We are still back to speculation as to their likely performance with contributors in one camp or the other. Things are still coming up that are already covered in the letters from MCS. The controls of the system is one of them.

This is getting to be like QI, where the answer to the question is 'nobody knows'. I feel like Alan Davis with a score of minus 46!

 

[Gavin A]

Thus, Thermodynamic Solar Panels are currently very expensive, take an unrealistic

time to economically pay back and during periods of extreme cold weather,

UK householders will be saddelled with increased electric bills to heat their water.

This is probably true for anyone on mains gas. It's definitely not true for anyone who's on full electric heating with no gas option, which is several hundred thousand households in the country. It's not a one size fits all solution, but then practically nothing is - it should however have a valid place in the market and could save a significant minority of people a significant amount of money.

 

[Gavin A]

The consultants we hired came back with a report that basically said the COP was too low to qualify which meant the data supplied to us by the manufacturer was not "Complete" or inaccurate.

did the consultants actually take measurements themselves for this report, or attempt to calculate the COP?

 

[Gavin A]

We are still going round in circles on this. The theory of their working has been ably shown and discussed in this thread. We are still back to speculation as to their likely performance with contributors in one camp or the other. Things are still coming up that are already covered in the letters from MCS. The controls of the system is one of them.

This is getting to be like QI, where the answer to the question is 'nobody knows'. I feel like Alan Davis with a score of minus 46!

indeed. I'm wondering if our finances will stretch to buying a unit we can set up to test through this winter.

 

[Vegelen]

Excerpts From A Consumer Focus Report: Off Gas Consumers

- "21 million homes in Britain are heated by mains gas (83 per cent of all homes): 84 per cent in England, 76 per cent in Scotland and 79 per cent in Wales."

- "2.3 million homes in Britain are heated by electricity (9.3 per cent), 1.1 million (4.4 per cent) by heating oil, 310,000 (1.2 per cent) by solid fuel and 170,000 (0.7 per cent) by LPG. In total, 3.9 million homes in Britain rely on other heating fuels to mains gas to heat their homes."

- "Electricity is the second most common heating fuel after gas in England and Scotland, whereas heating oil is the second most common in Wales. However, the largest number of heating oil consumers (828,000) live in England, reflecting its larger population."