Unqualified, inexperienced badged "electricians"

[highspark]

How can we put an end to this drivel? Why is there people out there unqualified and inexperienced bluffing their way into work. Taking work from fully qualified time served lads?Theres a couple in my area. Driving round in vans with schemes tatooed all over them. They look the biz - the outfit. But I know they are not electricians. They are chancers bluffing their way through. The 17th Edition minimum requirement to have a schemes backing...its a farce. The problem I have is the customers can't differenciate from a fully qualified. 17th edition, 2391, tech cert nvq3 electrician from a 17th edition short course idiot! It boils my blood

 

[dixon9]

if its that hard why are all the office boys jumping out of their chairs to be a di,

Please do not confuse the terms "DI" and "domestic electrician"...they both can be VERY different.

 

[dixon9]

Well we do 80% domestic, 10% commercial 10% Light industrial. Its rare that we have designers involved in comm/Ind as its nearly all upgrades but the truth is that in domestic as long as you follow a few basic principles you dont need to worry too much about voltage drop, segregation ,external influences, banks of IT, etc etc etc. Thats a day to day issue outside of domestic so cant say I agree Dixon

Fair enough. But there's a LOT more to the life of a domestic electrician than volt drop! In a typical week I am usually involved in fault-finding, testing, inspecting and yes...some simple installation work as well....

I'd also add that in my experience the commercial sparks have a lot more mundane life and generally don't get as much money as the domestic sparks.

 

[alarm man]

Please do not confuse the terms "DI" and "domestic electrician"...they both can be VERY different.

whats a domestic electrician?

 

[Engineer54]

You could argue that the designers in the commercial industry have greater knowledge but even then I'm not 100% convinced. Mosern domestic design can be just as challenging in a lot of cases.

The all-round domestic spark has to perform ALL tasks. The common fallacy (that has always amazed me), is that because commercial sparks work with higher voltages and currents that the work must be somehow "superior".

The reason electrical contractors (electricians) have to follow instructions as you put it, is because the majority of commercial contracts will have contractual specifications attached to the contract. They have to be followed it's as simple as that!! they tend to be of a higher standard than those required by BS7671, there are also many other standards that they must know and follow....

Do industrial/commercial qualified electricians have a greater knowledge than Domestic electricians, you bet they do!! They work with and on just about everything, from ELV systems to LV/MV Switchboards which will encompasses all of the various Building Services you will find in a commercial building/project of any size. Do they know how to conduct ALL the relevant testing to all these systems and installations, ....most will know more about testing than a domestic electrician and will be using test equipment that domestic electricians will have never seen or heard of, let alone know how, or even where to use them...

Industrial electricians have to maintain factory plant as well as install electrical installations, most of that factory plant will be far outside the knowledge of a domestic electrician. They will be working with 3 phase supplies in all it's guises, sophisticated motors controls, relay and PLC controls, etc etc... Let's put it this way, an industrial electrician will with a little instruction be more than able to say wire/rewire any domestic properties installation, but a domestic electrician wouldn't be able to take the role of an industrial electrician without some very intensive training and instruction, and that's a fact!!!

You seem to be have a very narrow or limited knowledge of commercial work, it doesn't revolve around pulling SWA cables, it encompasses the whole 9 yards of electricians work. Electricians don't do much on the design side of things, (but don't run away with the idea that they can't) that's done by Consultant Electrical Engineers, and supervised by site electrical RE's. Do you honestly believe that a qualified electrician would be capable of designing the complete installation of a commercial project of any size??

 

[TaffyDuck]

Fair enough. But there's a LOT more to the life of a domestic electrician than volt drop! In a typical week I am usually involved in fault-finding, testing, insoecting and yes...some simple installation work as well.... In my experience the commercial sparks have a lot more mundane life and generally don't get as much money as the domestic sparks.

Absolutely right mate, was just making the point that its not all running monsterous great SWA everywhere. Domestic Clients often care more, and consequently often have greater expectations of what is possible because its their own personal money and they have an emotional investment in their own houses. Different skill set, although I did put metal conduit in a barn kitchen a few weeks ago cos they wanted the "industrial look". Theres lots of good electricians in both fields. I personally prefer domestic because I like the banter with the clients and your right that a lot of domestic electricians are getting a bad name because we are being assumed to be incompetent due to this joke that is domestic installer qualification. However Im often called out to put right jobs that have been cocked up by an inexperienced sparky or a builder who thinks hes a sparky. if we are stuck with Part P we need to toughen it up big time.

 

[Heisenberg]

Quelle surprise...​

This whole thread has gone down exactly the same route that every other thread on this subject has, i.e.

Two sides that obviously have diametrically opposed/entrenched views, and all they proceed to do is to progressively slag each other off.

31 pages and counting, haven't you lot got anything better to do. LOL

 

[TaffyDuck]

The reason electrical contractors (electricians) have to follow instructions as you put it, is because the majority of commercial contracts will have contractual specifications attached to the contract. They have to be followed it's as simple as that!! they tend to be of a higher standard than those required by BS7671, there are also many other standards that they must know and follow....

Do industrial/commercial qualified electricians have a greater knowledge than Domestic electricians, you bet they do!! They work with and on just about everything, from ELV systems to LV/MV Switchboards which will encompasses all of the various Building Services you will find in a commercial building/project of any size. Do they know how to conduct ALL the relevant testing to all these systems and installations, ....most will know more about testing than a domestic electrician and will be using test equipment that domestic electricians will have never seen or heard of, let alone know how, or even where to use them...

Industrial electricians have to maintain factory plant as well as install electrical installations, most of that factory plant will be far outside the knowledge of a domestic electrician. They will be working with 3 phase supplies in all it's guises, sophisticated motors controls, relay and PLC controls, etc etc... Let's put it this way, an industrial electrician will with a little instruction be more than able to say wire/rewire any domestic properties installation, but a domestic electrician wouldn't be able to take the role of an industrial electrician without some very intensive training and instruction, and that's a fact!!!

You seem to be have a very narrow or limited knowledge of commercial work, it doesn't revolve around pulling SWA cables, it encompasses the whole 9 yards of electricians work. Electricians don't do much on the design side of things, (but don't run away with the idea that they can't) that's done by Consultant Electrical Engineers, and supervised by site electrical RE's. Do you honestly believe that a qualified electrician would be capable of designing the complete installation of a commercial project of any size??

Well I know for sure that I wouldn`t be able to work on very very complex industrial gear. I have no experience of it at all and have turned down jobs on that basis. In the end I know my own limitations. Tbh I dont want to do that sort of work. Dixon is right up to a point though, last weeks domestic work included refitting a kitchen worktop and replastering a wall. Not too many industrial sparks could do that so it cuts both ways

 

[alarm man]

Absolutely right mate, was just making the point that its not all running monsterous great SWA everywhere. Domestic Clients often care more, and consequently often have greater expectations of what is possible because its their own personal money and they have an emotional investment in their own houses. Different skill set, although I did put metal conduit in a barn kitchen a few weeks ago cos they wanted the "industrial look". Theres lots of good electricians in both fields. I personally prefer domestic because I like the banter with the clients and your right that a lot of domestic electricians are getting a bad name because we are being assumed to be incompetent due to this joke that is domestic installer qualification. However Im often called out to put right jobs that have been cocked up by an inexperienced sparky or a builder who thinks hes a sparky. if we are stuck with Part P we need to toughen it up big time.

what a load of...you think a homeowner demands more,you can bull a homeowner who knows nowt,try doing that to the likes of e54 ,he will have you rip it all out and start again,then your off the job with the fines etc,domestics are way easier to work in,hence the di course in 5 weeks or less,funny they dont do an industrial 5 week course,gap in the market there

 

[Engineer54]

Well I know for sure that I wouldn`t be able to work on very very complex industrial gear. I have no experience of it at all and have turned down jobs on that basis. In the end I know my own limitations. Tbh I dont want to do that sort of work. Dixon is right up to a point though, last weeks domestic work included refitting a kitchen worktop and replastering a wall. Not too many industrial sparks could do that so it cuts both ways

What the hell has fitting a kitchen worktop and plastering a wall got to do with an electricians work for god's sake??

 

[TaffyDuck]

what a load of...you think a homeowner demands more,you can bull a homeowner who knows nowt,try doing that to the likes of e54 ,he will have you rip it all out and start again,then your off the job with the fines etc,domestics are way easier to work in,hence the di course in 5 weeks or less,funny they dont do an industrial 5 week course,gap in the market there

Who rattled your cage, read my posts what Im trying to do is put in a modicum of common sense here. Industrial = good Domestic = bad is childish, naive old rubbish.

 

[alarm man]

What the hell has fitting a kitchen worktop and plastering a wall got to do with an electricians work for god's sake??

every site needs a canteen e54..you know nowt..

 

[TaffyDuck]

What the hell has fitting a kitchen worktop and plastering a wall got to do with an electricians work for god's sake??

That was dixons point I think. we turned up on site, had no choice but to take down part of a partition wall to access faulty cables. So had to take out the work top and after the job was done plasterboard skim and replace the worktop. No time to get anyone else in....simples

 

[DurhamSparky]

i really cant be arsed to read all 31 pages of this nonsense!! same rant over and over again about 3 years vs 3 weeks

in the grand scheme of things you pick an area of expertise! be that Domestic or Industrial (you may even dabble in both if lucky)

no body will be a master of every thing!

 

[Engineer54]

That was dixons point I think. we turned up on site, had no choice but to take down part of a partition wall to access faulty cables. So had to take out the work top and after the job was done plasterboard skim and replace the worktop. No time to get anyone else in....simples

Are you saying that domestic electricians are also kitchen fitters and plasterers too now?? I doubt very much if many would take on plastering a wall. Might muck about with a worktop though!! ...lol!!

 

[alarm man]

That was dixons point I think. we turned up on site, had no choice but to take down part of a partition wall to access faulty cables. So had to take out the work top and after the job was done plasterboard skim and replace the worktop. No time to get anyone else in....simples

so you took the kitchen bench off,made a couple of holes,put the bench back and filled the holes,where did you learn to do that