Unqualified, inexperienced badged "electricians"

[highspark]

How can we put an end to this drivel? Why is there people out there unqualified and inexperienced bluffing their way into work. Taking work from fully qualified time served lads?Theres a couple in my area. Driving round in vans with schemes tatooed all over them. They look the biz - the outfit. But I know they are not electricians. They are chancers bluffing their way through. The 17th Edition minimum requirement to have a schemes backing...its a farce. The problem I have is the customers can't differenciate from a fully qualified. 17th edition, 2391, tech cert nvq3 electrician from a 17th edition short course idiot! It boils my blood

 

[TaffyDuck]

Well I can, I taught myself a lot of stuff over the years, plastering came from not being able to afford a plasterer when i built my 1st house. No way Im professional and Im bloody slow but the finish is good. I dont choose to do this but sometimes its unavoidable in domestic. Anyway I can go and get a hard time from the Mrs so I`ll leave you to your rants. Night

 

[alarm man]

Well I can, I taught myself a lot of stuff over the years,

its basic diy man..a di that can refit a bench,you be a project manager soon..

 

[Dave 85]

Dixon9 You make a good point but I still stand by my statement that industrial work is potentially more technically challenging.

The difference is, as far as I'm concerned in domestic theres only really 2 levels, you're either a sparky or your a sparky's mate. The sparky has to be able to do design, pricing, testing, inspection, accounting, driving invoicing etc and the sparkys mate just needs to be able to pull cables, chase walls and know how to wire a lighting circuit/ring.

In my opinion someone who is determined and has their head screwed on and a decent bit of training, can competently fullfill the role of 'sparky' with as little as 6 months experience as a mate. Obviously you will still be learning, you never stop learning, but any mistakes you make will generally affect you not the client and you won't make them again.

Now I don't know a lot about the industrial/site work sector, but as far as I'm aware there are several grades of electrician: apprentice, improver, electrician, boss type electrician...something along those lines right? Now obviously If you've got 10 sparks on a site I'd say at least half need to be competent qualified electricians, but only one has to make major decisions and have massive all round technical knowledge, and even he doesn't nesecarily have to design anything or do any of the business side of things.
So yes I'd say the majority of the guys in the ind/site sector are gonna be doing mundane work/following orders, but even they need to have a wider technical knowledge than a domestic spark, but to reach the level of 'boss type sparky' or whatever you wanna call it is obviously gonna take years not months.

My point is, no one side of the industry can claim to be superior to the other, its two totally different things requiring totally different skill sets. Both sides of the industry can earn a guy 70k+ weather its because he's a highly skilled and experienced ind spark or someone running a highly successfull small domestic firm.

To claim that to be able to be self employed as a domestic spark should require the same level of experience and training as it takes to reach the aboslute top level of industrial work just doesn't make any sense.

Both sides have their drawbacks and benefits. Someone in the domestic sector, if he's clever and motivated can potentially be earning decent money within 3-4 yrs of starting out (£20-£50 per hour) but on the same note it can all go terribly wrong if the work is just not there. In the ind side, I assume you would still be considered an apprentice or approver after 3-4 yrs and probably earn somewhere between £10 and £20 per hour but its a much more stable job and you're earnings are most likely only gonna increase over time.

Swings and roundabouts

Horses for courses

 

[TaffyDuck]

its basic diy man..a di that can refit a bench,you be a project manager soon..

Well I thought that I was entering a debate and trying to inject a certain amount of reason on both sides. It seems however that you are so intent upon rattling cages for no other reason than your own selfish gratification that I will bow out before you loose all your hair.

 

[alarm man]

whats a boss type spark,there called ******** in the real world,or foreman/gaffer sometimes

 

[alarm man]

I will bow out before you loose all your hair.

i might be going thin on top,no need to mock mate..

 

[Engineer54]

In the ind side, I assume you would still be considered an apprentice or approver after 3-4 yrs and probably earn somewhere between £10 and £20 per hour but its a much more stable job and you're earnings are most likely only gonna increase over time.

There is only Apprentice, Electrician, Foreman, General Foreman (sometimes), Engineering Manager(s). There are, or were no trainee, mates, or improver electricians in the industrial sector when i was working in that area of the industry...

 

[dixon9]

whats a domestic electrician?

An electrician who works in domestic environments.

 

[dixon9]

The reason electrical contractors (electricians) have to follow instructions as you put it, is because the majority of commercial contracts will have contractual specifications attached to the contract. They have to be followed it's as simple as that!! they tend to be of a higher standard than those required by BS7671, there are also many other standards that they must know and follow....

Do industrial/commercial qualified electricians have a greater knowledge than Domestic electricians, you bet they do!! They work with and on just about everything, from ELV systems to LV/MV Switchboards which will encompasses all of the various Building Services you will find in a commercial building/project of any size. Do they know how to conduct ALL the relevant testing to all these systems and installations, ....most will know more about testing than a domestic electrician and will be using test equipment that domestic electricians will have never seen or heard of, let alone know how, or even where to use them...

Industrial electricians have to maintain factory plant as well as install electrical installations, most of that factory plant will be far outside the knowledge of a domestic electrician. They will be working with 3 phase supplies in all it's guises, sophisticated motors controls, relay and PLC controls, etc etc... Let's put it this way, an industrial electrician will with a little instruction be more than able to say wire/rewire any domestic properties installation, but a domestic electrician wouldn't be able to take the role of an industrial electrician without some very intensive training and instruction, and that's a fact!!!

You seem to be have a very narrow or limited knowledge of commercial work, it doesn't revolve around pulling SWA cables, it encompasses the whole 9 yards of electricians work. Electricians don't do much on the design side of things, (but don't run away with the idea that they can't) that's done by Consultant Electrical Engineers, and supervised by site electrical RE's. Do you honestly believe that a qualified electrician would be capable of designing the complete installation of a commercial project of any size??

I still can't agree with you. In my experience (which is quite extensive and over many years) the majority of the electricians in industrial and commercial firms do not perform the tasks you mentioned off their own bat - there's usually 1 or 2 that know their stuff and the rest follow their instructions.

I'd go further and say that the number of sparks that know ALL the tasks you mention are few and far between - some will know some fields and other the other fields but the vast majority of sparks in the commercial and industrial environments are almost electrical labourers with some tech knowledge.

There are of course commercial and industrial sparks that know their stuff of course and some of these would know more than some domestic electricians. There are also plenty of domestic sparks I have met and know that know more than their industrial and commercial cousins. In any case, a lot of domestic sparks have previous experience in the industrial and commercial fields (I am one of them).

I can only go by my own experience. It wasn't designed to upset anyone - I was just responding to what I beleive felt was a somewhat misinformed, arrogant statement.

 

[Engineer54]

There are also plenty of domestic sparks I have met and know that know more than their industrial and commercial cousins.

Only in your wildest dreams my friend, ...Not unless they originally Came from the industrial sector!!

What your describing isn't what i know of the industrial or commercial sectors, and i've worked my whole working life in these two sectors. What you must have seen were improver's and mates that are common on the commercial projects... Trust me qualified commercial industrial electricians bear no resemblance to your description whatsoever!!

Haha!! ...I wonder what Tony would have to say about your view on industrial electricians???

 

[Des 56]

quote
the electricians in industrial and commercial firms do not perform the tasks you mentioned off their own bat

The industry I was in (mining)the sparks generally worked on their own with an apprentice to carry the tool bag
He would have to know his stuff or the place would shut down pronto,most of the work had to done by the electrician as an individual

Domestic work has much less need for individual thinking,because of the large quantity of standard circuit arrangements and virtual replica installation work that takes place

You need only to list those top achievers on this site (quite a large proportion of the ones who know their onions to very high levels)they are either industrial maintenance or large commercial/industrial electricians or even project managers and the like

Domestic electricians (which I am one )will, on the whole, have not the slightest chance of comparing with the higher technicall understanding of most maintenance sparks, let alone being capable of doing their jobs
Most of us in the domestic sector, would not be aware of the vast shortcomings in the level of our skill that would prevent us, without adequate further training,being able to work in their field

I for one take my hat off to the likes of these people and respect and am humbled by their knowlege and experience

 

[ipf]

Fair enough. But there's a LOT more to the life of a domestic electrician than volt drop! In a typical week I am usually involved in fault-finding, testing, inspecting and yes...some simple installation work as well....

I'd also add that in my experience the commercial sparks have a lot more mundane life and generally don't get as much money as the domestic sparks.

Try fault finding under pressure on a direct melt glass fibre production plant. If things aren't up and running within a couple of hours it's a couple of million ££££ down the swanny. I'm sure many more examples could be given by others in the know....

 

[Engineer54]

Try fault finding under pressure on a direct melt glass fibre production plant. If things aren't up and running within a couple of hours it's a couple of million ££££ down the swanny. I'm sure many more examples could be given by others in the know....

I'm going back a very long time now, but when any one of our lines went down, the loss to the company was around 3000+ a minute!! After 3 minutes the engineering foreman was in place, ....5 minutes and the Plant Engineering Manager was there!! lol!! Which i might add, was a very rare occurance!!

 

[dixon9]

Only in your wildest dreams my friend, ...Not unless they originally Came from the industrial sector!!

What your describing isn't what i know of the industrial or commercial sectors, and i've worked my whole working life in these two sectors. What you must have seen were improver's and mates that are common on the commercial projects... Trust me qualified commercial industrial electricians bear no resemblance to your description whatsoever!!

Haha!! ...I wonder what Tony would have to say about your view on industrial electricians???

Sorry...just cant agree with you. The vast majority aren't as you and some others describe - only a few.

Interesting to take a look at this forum re technical discussions: How many are re domestic and how many industrial for example? Its my experience that the majority of commercial sparks do not possess this vast knowledge that you say...most just follow orders from the clued up guys who appear on sire every now and then.

I'm not saying that ALL domestic sparks know more than commercial sparks (please see my earlier posts) - indeed, I have met and worked with many on both sides.

I just find the attitude of some commercial sparks incredible narrow and closed - there's plenty of knowledgable domestic sparks out there and a lot also have a lot of experience not just on the domestic side. The original post that I responded to doesnt seem to take account of so many factors.


And I've no idea who Tony is.

 

[dixon9]

Try fault finding under pressure on a direct melt glass fibre production plant. If things aren't up and running within a couple of hours it's a couple of million ££££ down the swanny. I'm sure many more examples could be given by others in the know....

#

Do you honestly believe that a domestic electrician doesn't have to fault-find and often under pressure?!

You need to think again mate.