USA politics, recent events.

[Darkwood]

You started a thread which consists largely of your opinions and speculations. It consists primarily of "ifs, buts and mayby, s" Unfortunately hard facts are extremely hard to come by in your posts. When presented with the hard facts of Trump's blatant dishonesty and lying, you chose to ignore them and instead inform us of "declassified this and that" that you have read. You profess ignorance of the fact that Trump made white supremacy fashionable again.The proverbial dogs in the street know it. How did you manage to miss it??despite the hours of research you apparently put in to American politics. Trump took the traditional republican "dog whistle" (an appeal to right wingers) and replaced it with a trumpet.
On this forum, responsible sparks (and I don't doubt you are one by the way) are constantly reminding DIY posters of potential danger once we discern they don't understand what they are dealing with. Trump's politics are no different. They have danger written all over them. The responsible thing to do is call it out.

You may want to look in the mirror of your own posts, you have repeatedly done exactly what you accuse me of doing, you fail to even address a question I asked now 3 times so really who is peddling in claims you do not back up... please name these white supremacists that is all I asked and still keep asking, I remind you I do not follow sites that peddle hearsay, propaganda and conspiracy, I watch legal debate and follow real proceedings and the evidence provided.
At no point have I denied dishonest acts of Trump you may have put but you take my position not to raise them as a position that I do not admit to them which is presumption on your part, a point I made earlier btw, all sides of politics has its bad points and I do not deny that but I pursue lesser of the 2 evils and what I have witnessed over the last 4yrs and the cases I have watched live, the content I have seen regarding Hunter Biden and his father has sealed my side of the debate to prefer Trump to the corruption that has entered the Whitehouse at the moment.

Regarding DIY - that has no relevance to this subject and your attempt to suggest they are comparable are just your opinion which I disagree, what I do agree with is your position to challenge ideas that you do not agree with as that is what debate is about however your claim 'dangerous' relative to this debate is your opinion and you need to back that up with more than attacks on me and what I say, I remind you you started of posting several posts by quoting part isolated paragraphs and sentences then deliberately taking them out of the context they were written in for nothing more than a 'jovial' jab at members.

As it stands at the moment you are spending more time actually complaining about the thread than you are challenging any specific points raised, you fail to bring anything to the table yourself except your opinion and claims you do not back up, so lets try move forward here (both of us) and bring more citation and evidence to back our positions.

PS - I actually think I know who these 'White Supremacists' are you refer to but need you to say their name because there is one glaring elephant in the room attaching that tag to them, even so I do not condone this group or the fact Trump may have boosted their presence in the public eye, funny how you brought that up and fail to mention the MSM and Democrats approach with BLM and Antifa both guilty of worse crimes then this suggested group you call out if it is the same group I am thinking.

 

[electric al]

P. S. I don, t or won't be getting involved in politics myself. I took that decision some time ago. My purpose in commenting on this thread (this will be my final comment on the matter) is because it has in my view crossed a line. It promotes idea, s which are simply not to anyone's advantage. Idea, s that are divisive. It would be a terribly pity if these type of thread was to become acceptable. This forum I have come to value. Its worth fighting for. Have a good day everyone?

By having an opinion you are involved in politics and have become involved.
We are all just sharing views and debating in a largely civilised manner and that is how it should be .The real danger is trying to shut down debate because that helps us better understand each others motivations and grievances .
Some good can come of that

 

[nicebutdim]

Yeah we were mate, I watched the whole thing on TV and the Trump speech before hand, he asked the mob to go to the Capitol and said he would go in with them, he knew the Secret service wouldn't allow him to go but wound the crowd up and hundreds of out of control yobbo's then attacked the building and entered, Trump incited it and 5 people ended up dead, he was to blame, and thank God he has now gone, I want him to get found guilty, because if he doesn't he will be back next time in 2024, and it wouldn't surprise me if he won again, they are that daft over there.

We can argue all day long about what meaning should be ascribed to spoken words and we may all perceive such words differently but, for purposes of clarity and accuracy, here are Trump's exact words:

"I know that everyone here will soon be marching over to the Capitol building to peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard."

The full speech is available to watch online and transcripts are also available to review.

 

[Midwest]

Transcripts have been made by various, some don’t mention him saying ‘peacefully’ and the best part of his speech, keeps referring to election fraud and that the election was stolen, with the audience cheering him on, and him seemly cheering them on.

This comes after various tweets he made before the 6th, same sort of rhetoric, but worse, which led to his account suspension.

We‘ll just have wait and see what his impeachment case says, if it goes ahead.

 

[nicebutdim]

Transcripts have been made by various, some don’t mention him saying ‘peacefully’

I'd copied and pasted those words from the first transcript provided by google, but agree that it would be very easy to omit or add words and why should anyone believe me? I'm just some random person on an internet forum, who might have fabricated that quote.

To be clear about what words were actually spoken, it is fortunate that video evidence also exists.

Many media outlets played the same clip, but chose to only play the section that fitted their agenda and then cut to talking heads who were ready to condemn. I don't agree with some of what @darkwood has posted, but fully agree with his words about the media and the explicit bias often displayed by news outlets that many people trust. I would state that anyone who receives their information, on domestic or international affairs, from news media is very unlikely to be in possession of even half the facts of any story. To find the video posted above I had to scroll past many videos that had editied out the contentious words - many of which claiming those words were never spoken.

 

[Darkwood]

To be noted here when Trump users the terms fight or fighting he is clearly been figurative as the context of the rest of his speech clarifies.
I find it strange that we have seen thousands of politicians use phrases like fight for what you believe and all they mean is in a figurative sense and not a violent one, but because it is trump and we have had a 4yr witch hunt on him they take those words as an incite to violence which within the context of the rest of the speech is ludicrous to suggest that.

'We are going to cheer on our brave senators' .... clearly part of a speech that is inciting violence -not!

 

[Midwest]

I'd copied and pasted those words from the first transcript provided by google, but agree that it would be very easy to omit or add words and why should anyone believe me? I'm just some random person on an internet forum, who might have fabricated that quote.

To be clear about what words were actually spoken, it is fortunate that video evidence also exists.

Many media outlets played the same clip, but chose to only play the section that fitted their agenda and then cut to talking heads who were ready to condemn. I don't agree with some of what @darkwood has posted, but fully agree with his words about the media and the explicit bias often displayed by news outlets that many people trust. I would state that anyone who receives their information, on domestic or international affairs, from news media is very unlikely to be in possession of even half the facts of any story. To find the video posted above I had to scroll past many videos that had editied out the contentious words - many of which claiming those words were never spoken.

Far enough. However, the rest of his speech just keeps on repeating the same rhetoric about election fraud and the steal etc, and as previously mentioned the tweets beforehand. Enough to inspire the crowd to do what happened IMO.

I do take the point about using terms like 'fight like hell' and its use in general, but whether that was his mens rea or not, that's exactly what happened. Being a man who holds such power or did have, he should of choose his words more carefully.

When I listen to this man, I find his words both arrogant, belittling and offensive. I recall someone posting about how many conflicts previous Presidents had took their country into conflicts, whereas Trump had none. But I wonder how many achievements he's had as a President in comparison?

 

[telectrix]

But I wonder how many achievements he's had as a President in comparison?

was a lot listed in an early post, think it was darkwood.

 

[loz2754]

When I listen to this man, I find his words both arrogant, belittling and offensive.

Totally agree. Couldn't have put it better. The president of the most powerful nation in the world surely should at least try to display a little tact when talking to people. Instead he talks over people, not allowing them to air their view.
I am glad he's out.

 

[MDJ]

But I wonder how many achievements he's had as a President in comparison?

was a lot listed in an early post, think it was darkwood.

Fair Play Tel, this site wouldn't be the same without you and your comedy, Your a good Guy, I'd love to have a pint with you sometime, it would be fun I know

 

[Midwest]

I learnt about the Hubris Theory some time ago with some of my bosses. I think Trump excels in this area. In fact he could teach a few leaders, a point or too. Makes Putin look like a -----.

 

[Darkwood]

In post 1 I linked to a list of achievements, browse through them and see how many you recognise from the media telling you, very few if any, when Obama was in the MSM fell over itself to promote positive feedback and spin on anything he did yet Trump has half the term of Obama and breaks all the records with jobs, economy, peace deals etc and nothing from the BBC or other outlets.
When you are constantly paraded with everything a person does wrong it is very easy to misjudge them and ignore what they have actually achieved.
I have never said Trump doesn't make gaffs, his 'injecting yourself with bleach' is a massive one of many but I prefer to judge the man for what he has done for the black community and black education, the employment record breaking figures as well as the economic ones, like i said before, on paper this man has achieved way more for the USA as any recent president has ever done and that is totally been ignored by the media to feed there anti Trump narrative.

 

[telectrix]

that's if there's any pubs left when this virus thing is over.

 

[GBDamo]

I’m not putting words in your mouth, I’ve summarised the suspicions you’ve made.

Lets face it none of us know what really took place, we were not there. As typical in large scale violent demonstrations, it’s difficult to comprehend how this unfolded. We gain our information, from various sources, mostly the internet, which I have.

Indeed there was intelligence on what’s was to happen, you only have to look at all the stuff on the internet beforehand, about ‘stopthesteal’. I’ve read that the Capitol Police, said there was no such intelligence.

For your first point, the various persons were present in and around the Capitol because of the happenings in there, but also by various tweets Trump had been made leading up to this event, not least his speech, for many days before. He IMO incited them before and during.

Again from the internet, the Capitol Police are responsible for the security of the building. Washington, D.C., is not a state: Because D.C. does not have a governor, D.C. Guard deployments must be approved by the city’s National Guard army secretary, Ryan McCarthy. This is a slower process than a governor hastily declaring a state of emergency and calling in National Guard forces in large numbers.

Pelosi is not in charge of the security of the Capitol building (various internet searches).

Quite simply the Capitol Police were overwhelmed by the size of the mob. We will have to wait and see, why they did not have additional resources. They only have 2000 officers. Even if they were all deployed, that would be insufficient to protect the grounds and building IMO, in such an incident. Perhaps they were too vain to ask.

For your last point, there is precedent for impeachment of a person, after they have left office. Leave you all to google that.

Apologies for the long post folks ?

Qui bono?

As always who benefits?

That most people do not know that many Republican senators were going to use, rightfully, the counting ceremony as an opportunity to air their objections and get them on record is very telling.

The fact that this "insurrection" allowed the process to be halted and subsequently waived through without contest tell us all we need to know.

 

[GBDamo]

P. S. I don, t or won't be getting involved in politics myself. I took that decision some time ago. My purpose in commenting on this thread (this will be my final comment on the matter) is because it has in my view crossed a line. It promotes idea, s which are simply not to anyone's advantage. Idea, s that are divisive. It would be a terribly pity if these type of thread was to become acceptable. This forum I have come to value. Its worth fighting for. Have a good day everyone?

Cherio, don't let the door smack your --- on the way out.