Voltage Optimisation

[wiggly]

Guys,
As every one is quieter on PV we are looking at this type of product voltage optimisers.
We have 3 good SELECT approved sparkys and i dont want to lose any of them if we can sell this product through our client bank my understanding this is a 10 percent saving on electricity.
is any one installing what products are you using and what is a typical install time.

An idea of prices and pay back would be good (pmed of course).
Thanks with your responses.

wiggly

 

[sedgy34]

voltis route is good!! google marshall tufflex voltis

 

[johnboy6083]

there have been threads about this in the past. The general opinion (if i remember correctly) was that they are rubbish, as they can only take a certain loadf beofe they drop out of use, so for most houses they are not worth it.

 

[sedgy34]

there have been threads about this in the past. The general opinion (if i remember correctly) was that they are rubbish, as they can only take a certain loadf beofe they drop out of use, so for most houses they are not worth it.

what is your experience with the voltis unit??

 

[Earthstore]

I would have thought that 60A before it goes into bypass would be ample for a domestic install, however some units do go into bypass at 20A, however these units are only connected into dedicated circuits, so do seem a little pointless.

 

[johnboy6083]

what is your experience with the voltis unit??

To bhew honest mate i was referiing to others opinions, as i have not fitted any voltage optimisation kit. The ones that people were slating, that i seem to remember was the v-phase. As ive said, these are second hand opinions, not my own.

 

[Plonker 3]

I shall just leave these here.

http://www.electriciansforums.net/electrical-wiring-theories-electrical-regulations/38125-vphase-units.html
http://www.electriciansforums.net/e.../54877-voltage-optimisation-unit-results.html

 

[JulianC]

^ That's the biggest problem with Voltage Optimisation: worthless opinions from people who've never used them.

My Voltis has saved me around 7-8%. Only fitted it to see if they work. As far as I'm concerned, it does.

 

[malcolmsanford]

To be honest i'm very skeptical of post from people advocating a snake oil product that according to the law of physics should not be able to work, especially when 50% of that posters pedigree is on the subject.

Until there is a proper scientific study done on them, I'm still very much in the camp of ...............baaa humbug.

I feel that as one post pointed out, people that get these things make a conscious effort in other areas also to limit their electrical usage, and when they do turn the stat down a degree or 2, fit low wattage lights, insulate etc etc, they tend to think wow this machine really works, and then declare it's a winner ................I've yet to be convinced

 

[sedgy34]

http://savepowerathome.co.uk/sites/d...20DOC00177.pdf from the renewables thread

 

[Earthstore]

^ That's the biggest problem with Voltage Optimisation: worthless opinions from people who've never used them.

My Voltis has saved me around 7-8%. Only fitted it to see if they work. As far as I'm concerned, it does.

There you go, some real figures, not just a theory as to why they don't work.

We all know airplanes can fly, but if the Wright bros had not persisted because they thought it would work, we might all just have the theory that it is not possible.

 

[JulianC]

Like I said, I fitted one to try it out. I was sceptical. It cost me nothing. I have no vested interest. I fitted it purely to see if it works. I have made no other changes to my consumption patterns (it's increased if anything). As far as I'm concerned it works. Of course, I'm sure that won't stop any of the nay-sayers debunking them, whether they've used one or not. Nor do I care.

 

[SolarCity]

The results thread is interesting. It does hint at some savings.

More real world data would be great.

 

[malcolmsanford]

Well to be honest ES though the Wright brothers probably knew quite a bit about Bikes, they knew very little about the science of flying and that is a proven science, so we know how they did it.

Physics also tell use that if you drop the voltage on a resistive load it will take longer to achieve what it is meant to do ..........so therefore your going to use more time to achieve you goal, and therefore increase your usage.

Once this as been dis proven to me then I'll accept it.

 

[Earthstore]

The case for including voltage optimisation in the Green Deal - 27 Mar 2012 - Industry Voice: a blog from BusinessGreen.

Have a look at this chaps, interesting reading?

 

[wiggly]

Guys,
Thanks for the responses so far.
Julian, I am interested in the fact that you have made the savings.
As stated I want to retain all the staff we have so if this is a product that we can save people money and earn a bit to pay wages it could be quite good especially if you could do a couple a day. And an in expensive sell to a customer thats why im try to gauge rough prices.
regards
wiggly

 

[Silly Sausage]

Like I said, I fitted one to try it out. I was sceptical. It cost me nothing. I have no vested interest. I fitted it purely to see if it works. I have made no other changes to my consumption patterns (it's increased if anything). As far as I'm concerned it works. Of course, I'm sure that won't stop any of the nay-sayers debunking them, whether they've used one or not. Nor do I care.

Have noticed any negative effects since using it?

 

[Earthstore]

Physics also tell use that if you drop the voltage on a resistive load it will take longer to achieve what it is meant to do ..........so therefore your going to use more time to achieve you goal, and therefore increase your usage.

Of course that would be correct, for a heating element, but for many other electrical items they do not need 253V, they work more efficiently at a slightly lower voltage.
My car will go 130MPH, and of course, if I drove that fast I would get everywhere sooner, but it would cost me more in fuel, and my engine would not last so long.

 

[JulianC]

I get the impression that no proof will be proof enough for some people. I don't think anyone has ever claimed these things work on (thermostatically controlled) resistive loads, bacause they obviously don't. Nor do they increase consumption in such circumstances. Less power for more time is roughly equal to more power for less time (ignoring thermal losses on me kettle of course)

 

[JulianC]

Have noticed any negative effects since using it?

None at all. Apart from the odd 'thunk' from the garage when it kicks in. Marginal dimming of lights not noticeable if you didn't see them dim in the first place. Other than that, you wouldn't know it was there.

 

[wiggly]

my thinking is with julian and earthstore if i remember back to 41.3p fit trying to convince people it wasnt a scam and PV actually worked in the uk.
I am waiting on edmunson and CEF getting back to me with prices. I am hopefull i can put my marketing people onto it by thursday to start selling it next week. As stated i need to keep people busy I dont want to lay any one off. And it looks to me to be another Viable product to add to our portfolio.

wiggly

 

[malcolmsanford]

Sorry Julian you can't though ignore thermal losses in this respect.

Resistive loads in the home must account for your highest use, even if you have a laptop and television running 16 hrs a day, I would hazard to guess that boiling a kettle 5-6 times day would dwarf that consumption, and that is before we go down the w/machine, D/washers oven/hobs immersion heaters, all thermostatically resistive loads

It is lighting that will be your best saving IMO for these units and I would think that if someone replaced their 60watt lamp with a 5watt LED, it would be more beneficial than fitting one of these.

As I say until there is REAL scientific proof that these work, I'll go bu what Mr Faraday and Mr Ohms told me.

 

[JulianC]

All you are saying is fine. However, my system works. I have seen the evidence in my bills. Nothing you can argue against will change that fact. I can therefore only assume that you think I'm either a liar or a misguided idiot. By all means remain sceptical but don't knock it until you've tried it.

It's easy to dismiss something with casual reference to Ohms Law etc. to back you up but let's see some hard evidence that these things don't work. I've seen less of that than the evidence that they do.

Show me the REAL scientific proof that they don't work!

 

[siliconskum]

JulianC - I don't doubt that you have seen reduction, but it DOES depend on what the loads are that are connected to the unit. Things like switched mode power supplies are self adjusting, they draw a higher current at the lower voltage, the result is exactly the same ammount of Watts being consumed. SMPS is used for a large number of modern devices in the home (modern mobile phone chargers, DVD players, LCD TVs, computers, CFL lighting etc.), and the lower voltage will not make any difference to these devices.

On more linear devices such as transformers / ballasts and resistive loads (incandescent lighting, heating elements etc.) there will be a power reduction, along with the associated reduced power output for these devices. So a fluorescent fitting with a magnetic ballast will have a lower consumption (and dimmer lamp), but an identical unit with an electronic ballast will not. Fridge / freezer compressors will see a reduction in consumption, and so will a Microwave oven.

So if a house is full of inefficient loads (no energy saving bulbs, transformer based wall-wart power adapters, older CRT TV etc.), then yes there will be the claimed saving.
The same house with energy saving bulbs (CFL and most LED), few wall-wart adapters that are all SMPS, modern LCD TV, laptop / desktop computer, and NO electrical heating elements (so gas CH + HW and gas cooker / oven), with no washing machin or tumble dryer - then this housewill see little or nothing in the way of savings.

Obviously I'm not including intermittent loads like the kettle, fridge compressor or vacuum cleaner, but these would also have saving. It would take a long time to recoup your money with just these loads however...

These devices will only work for some, and not for others, hence the range of views. In my case, I would be wasting my money as ALL my devices except for the CH pump, fish tank filter pump and my fridge-freezer are SMPS loads. The savings I would see would take MANY years to cover just the cost of the unit alone...

SS

 

[brman]

Sorry Julian you can't though ignore thermal losses in this respect.

Resistive loads in the home must account for your highest use, even if you have a laptop and television running 16 hrs a day, I would hazard to guess that boiling a kettle 5-6 times day would dwarf that consumption, and that is before we go down the w/machine, D/washers oven/hobs immersion heaters, all thermostatically resistive loads

It is lighting that will be your best saving IMO for these units and I would think that if someone replaced their 60watt lamp with a 5watt LED, it would be more beneficial than fitting one of these.

As I say until there is REAL scientific proof that these work, I'll go bu what Mr Faraday and Mr Ohms told me.

I agree with what malcolm says but it doesn't preclude these things working to an extent.
If you take a 10% voltage drop you get roughly 20% power drop on a resistive load. So showers and lights will gain from this whereas cookers (and probably washing machines etc) will not. Immersion heaters will gain if you are the "turn it on for 30 minutes in the morning" type of person but will not if you leave it on long enough fort the termostat to start working.

tbh I think malcolm and Julian are really agreeing with each other - they do work! The only arguement is on how well they work and that must depend on usage patterns.

My guess is that Julian showers a lot, heats his water from gas and eats a lot of takeaways! :rofl: