Voltage Optimisation

[JulianC]

My guess is that Julian showers a lot, heats his water from gas and eats a lot of takeaways! :rofl:

Frighteningly accurate. Apart from the showering a lot bit.

 

[fiardor]

Ok as i havent installed one of these items i cannot give my opinion on these optimisers but my boss is looking into the idea and has asked my opinion.

All i could of think of is this.

If you are going to remove a circuit and instal it in a reduced voltage fuse board then you are then responsible for this circuit and it needs to be tested and verified for continuity and Zs.

And this is where the problems start.

How many ring mains have you come across that fail miserably and have spurs feeding cooker supplies or some other horrendous nightmare that can cause you no end of trouble?

A £400 instal for a voltage reducer can turn into a huge repair bill to rectify any problem circuits.

Also a proper survey needs to be established to ensure all the criteria are met.

For example:

1. Bonding up to regs. Gas + water etc.
2. Enough room above existing fuse board to instal RV fuse board so all cables are long enough to reterminate.
3. Room for a henley block to instal new tails for RV fuseboard etc.

Just a few things that need to be taken into consideration.

 

[Earthstore]

The voltis just goes into the tails, meter>voltis>CU, therefore drops the voltage on all circuits, so not so sure you would need to "re-wire" the house.

Just take care if a PV system has been fitted though.

I hope this helps.

 

[Ponty Massive]

What is the difference between the voltis and the vphase (other than price)?

 

[Earthstore]

Lots..

 

[Ponty Massive]

Lots..

Like??

 

[Earthstore]

Sorry, it is just my wit.
The V phase can only be wired into dedicated circuits, so takes much longer to install, also it goes into bypass at 20A, so if could well be in bypass when it should be saving you money.

The Voltis just connects in the tails, tails>Voltis>CU, so the install is easy, also it goes into bypass at 60A, but they are bringing out a 100A soon.

You can not fit 3 units onto a 3 phase supply though, as if one goes into bypass and you have equipment on shared phases you could get backfeed to the unit.

Also take care if a PV system has been fitted, but that is in the instructions.

 

[fiardor]

The voltis just goes into the tails, meter>voltis>CU, therefore drops the voltage on all circuits, so not so sure you would need to "re-wire" the house.

Just take care if a PV system has been fitted though.

I hope this helps.

Ah thanks ES i didnt know the voltis did this my only view was on the V phase jobby.

But you cant put PV through the Voltis so a henley block and CCU is required if one isnt already installed.

 

[Earthstore]

But you cant put PV through the Voltis so a henley block and CCU is required if one isnt already installed.

Yes, so if PV has been installed already, and is on a MCB in the CU unit, you will have to change this.
Incoming supply>PV>Voltis>CU>

 

[Earthstore]

There you go I have added a pic, This install has two separate phases, (Don't ask) so as there was space, very easy install.

 

[fiardor]

View attachment 12166 There you go I have added a pic, This install has two separate phases, (Don't ask) so as there was space, very easy install.

Nice ES i like it. Quality instal.

Although its very difficult to NOT ask about the 2 phase load on a 3 phase supply but as you said DONT............ i wont....LOL

 

[screwdriver]

More proof they work required? We have done a 50kw installation for a local council and they had voltage optimisation fitted in the basement to lower the voltage for the entire site, this was a 400amp three phase unit that had been fitted at least a year before the PV. I was speaking to the facilities management team and they didn't think it would work when it was fitted but the proof was in the pudding with a 10% reduction in electricity consumption and no changes to usage patterns. They did have a large proportion of fluorescent lighting in the building so assuming the age of the building I would imagine it was not HF, also there was some air-conditioning equipment which would have been running 24hrs a day and so the reduced voltage would have helped reduced that load at the expense of less power at the motors.

By the way , I recommend voltis over vphase but they need to bring price down as we can purchase vphase for over half what the voltis costs, although the installation costs will be lower and cause you less agro with the voltis!

 

[Mattty]

In a local authority building a high proportion of the electricity demand would be for the servers and cooling for the servers.

I have not seen a domestic unit installed, but I have seen commercial systems installed: One in the Stroud council offices which was shown to be saving 7-8% and one installed in a golf club which was producing 15% savings. The one in the golf club was funded a few years ago by a zero interest Carbon Trust loan and so the payback had to be less than 4 years.

 

[UNG]

^ That's the biggest problem with Voltage Optimisation: worthless opinions from people who've never used them.

My Voltis has saved me around 7-8%. Only fitted it to see if they work. As far as I'm concerned, it does.

You make one hell of a statement with nothing to back it up, as for worthless opinions!!

Like I said, I fitted one to try it out. I was sceptical. It cost me nothing. I have no vested interest. I fitted it purely to see if it works. I have made no other changes to my consumption patterns (it's increased if anything). As far as I'm concerned it works. Of course, I'm sure that won't stop any of the nay-sayers debunking them, whether they've used one or not. Nor do I care.

So what is your payback period then. If your consumption has increased then how have you shown a saving?. And you are correct I and probably a few others still don't believe they work

I get the impression that no proof will be proof enough for some people. I don't think anyone has ever claimed these things work on (thermostatically controlled) resistive loads, bacause they obviously don't. Nor do they increase consumption in such circumstances. Less power for more time is roughly equal to more power for less time (ignoring thermal losses on me kettle of course)

You are correct no proof that they work is proof enough that they don't until some side by side proper scientific studies prove they do and we can rewrite some of the laws of physics


If these units work so well then my thought is they would have had a higher marketing profile than they do.

If the second stage of the European voltage harmonisation is brought back to life which I believe is likely then these units could become a white elephant as the DNO's would need to reduce the current voltage levels to comply

 

[SolarCity]

You are correct no proof that they work is proof enough that they don't until some side by side proper scientific studies prove they do and we can rewrite some of the laws of physics

I agree with regarding the scientific study. At best we can simply rely on case studies until then.

However, regarding rewriting the laws of physics - I'm pretty sure that the people that manufacture these devices have a grasp of Ohms law.

 

[sambotc]

Straight from the horses mouth

Voltage Optimisation, Carbon Reduction Commitment, Save Electricity

 

[Earthstore]

Not quite sure why you are having such a pop at JulianC, all he has done is showed that he had fitted one, and not made any other changes and it has saved him 7-8% on his electricity bill, whether we believe they do or do not work, it has saved him money, Fact.

Have a look at this, maybe it will explain things a little?
Voltage optimisation - for effective energy savings : Overview
If you are convinced that voltage optimisation does not work then fine, mind you many people believe that Solar PV did not work, but there thousands of panels bolted to roofs....

 

[UNG]

Straight from the horses mouth

Voltage Optimisation, Carbon Reduction Commitment, Save Electricity

Taken from your link "Voltis gathers the excess energy and converts your incoming mains supply into an amount that your equipment will require to run effectively."

So it doesnt optimise the voltage it gathers the "excess energy" sounds like a cranky green statement

Not quite sure why you are having such a pop at JulianC, all he has done is showed that he had fitted one, and not made any other changes and it has saved him 7-8% on his electricity bill, whether we believe they do or do not work, it has saved him money, Fact.

Have a look at this, maybe it will explain things a little?
Voltage optimisation - for effective energy savings : Overview
If you are convinced that voltage optimisation does not work then fine, mind you many people believe that Solar PV did not work, but there thousands of panels bolted to roofs....

JulianC has showed nothing he has made a statement with no credible evidence to prove and back it up, I do wonder what the results would be if you just fitted a placebo version of these units would be interesting if the householders made a saving

To compare these units with solar PV is an odd example as you have a meter that provides credible evidence that PV is working, the ever changing environmental conditions and varying lifestyle makes it hard to prove any savings from voltage optimisation year on year

 

[matt25]

If i ever need a lawyer i'll ask UNG....... this is despite me having a vphase in my own house lol :wink_smile:

 

[JulianC]

Oh dear me UNG. Untwist yer knickers for a moment. I am not out to prove to anyone else whether they work or not. I fitted one to prove it to myself. I have tried one and it works for me. I therefore value my opinion more than that from anyone who hasn't tried one and simply jumps on the VO-bashing bandwagon. Not sure why you are getting quite so worked up about it really but, hey, whatever floats your boat. You have no evidence to say these things either work or don't work. I have evidence in reduced consumption to say mine does, which is enough for me. Couldn't give a flying one if you believe me or not. My payback period is irrelevant to whether or not the technology works and I am seeing savings despite possibly increased consumption patterns, this is not the same as increased consumption. Call it increased appliance usage then if you prefer. I now work from home so have more stuff switched on during the day - usually just a PC and an occasional boost to the heating.

If you want to convince people that they are a load of cobblers, by all means carry on but at least try one first and post your evidence. Otherwise you just join the long ranks of excitable antis tilting at windmills.

 

[wiggly]

thanks for all the responses didint expect such a wide split in opinion.

Taking all comments and what i have read my opinion is this is a product that can be honestly sold to client. Using marketing this will get us in front off clients possibly up sell to a pv system or upgrade there consumer unit. I.E. work for 3 qualified electricians and some profit...............
So my question now Should it be voltis or vphase or is there an alternative available.

wiggly

 

[matt25]

I'd go with with whichever provides the best marketing literature for you to sell the product. Hard to say which is best, as you have already noticed! Great thread...... oh and im perfectly happy with my vphase!

 

[edexlab]

Julian I'm not out to have a go but I am a sceptic with this in my view the technology is proven in the right application /installation

I've only read the threads and some manufacturers info and therefore remain on the fence somewhat as to the viability of these in domestic/similar properties
So what I'm interested in is that as you say its made a 7-8% saving for you so did you monitor your usage for a long period of time before fitting the unit and afterwards and does this accurately reflect the seasonal changes and use of property ie you're now working from home it may have been monitored through the winter before fitting compared to summer usage post fitting etc
I'm not trying to say your figures/monitoring are flawed in anyway I just want to have a better picture of a real life installation coming from an electrician and customer rather than what the manufacturers sales people claim as in my experience they usually talk a lot of rubbish and like others on here would like to hear of any realistic case studies before offering them to customers.
At ecobuild last year the vphase bloke was adamant that the usable load limit before it went into bypass on their units was 90 amps until I pointed it out to him in the brochure he'd just given to me I wasn't impressed !.

 

[JulianC]

No probs. I'm basing it on 4 month's worth of weekly consumption figures vs. the same 4 month period a year ago, before it was fitted. We have carried out no energy efficiency measures in that time. Lights all CFL, gas cooker, central heating and hot water. Usual fridge/freezer/washing machine/LCD TV/hifi/Marshall stack/2 computers and a laptop. A year ago I worked for someone else and the house was empty most of the day. Now I work from home and have a PC or two on when in and occasionally set the heating pump a-running. I have not accounted for changes in weather, shifts of the earth on its axis, phases of the moon or enhanced druid activity in the local park.

I did also, on the odd occasion soon after installation, dangle my clamp-on round the tails and saw, when the thing kicked in, the current either remain fairly static, rise a small amount or indeed rise in proportion to the voltage dropping. Depends what loads were on at the time.

Nothing terribly scientific I'm afraid, cos I can't really be arsed. However, my electricity bill has dropped in response to fitting a Voltis.

Like I've said before, I was fairly sceptical about these things. I was spurred on to try one out purely to see if the quite frankly staggering amount of vitriol for these things on this forum was warranted. Even now I suspect I'm seen as lying or misguided in the eyes of those who think ohm's law is the be-all-and-end-all of electrical consumption. I am however satisfied that the Voltis is saving me money. I have a degree in electrical and electronic engineering, most of which I have forgotten over the years, but I remember enough of it to know I don't know everything. I therefore tend to reserve judgement on something until I see evidence. In this case I am happy it works. For me. In my circumstances.

Look, just try one. If it's something you intend to offer your customers in the future, the outlay to demo one yourself is minimal and you will be able to judge for yourselves if these things work or not.

 

[Glen Powell]

Haven't read all the posts since my last one, however as most of are sparkies on here it may be an opportunity to do some more accurate testing, and this could be done on a simple 3 pin plug apperatus (for testing only) my thoughts is to get the system and make a test bench with a number of bulbs on a timer with the vphase, 2 way consumer, elster meter and timer.

1 week at 8 hours a day with vphase, one week 8 hours a day without then look at the difference % wise.

Again another project I am willing to try should I find the time.