Wall socket

[Highlandbilly]

Is it ok to spike a socket across an inner wall
Have wired in a few sockets and one is above a cross beam in an inner wall that i wanted to drop down but hole in beam only enough for one twin and earth
Cant get access to open or drill hole as its behind splash-back
But across from where i want socket in other side of wall in other room is socket (single wired end of ring?)
So can spike from it but would mean very short twin and earth (6ins maybe) would this shortness cause a problem

 

[Dustydazzler]

Spike ?

do you mean ‘spur’ as in spur off the ring with a single cable ...?

 

[Highlandbilly]

Yes spur my mistake
I understand someone is going to post regs or limit on ring etc but i really want to know if the short distance between both sockets is a problem.

 

[Timbo]

What do you mean by "single wired end of ring"?

 

[Mike Johnson]

The reason everyone is being cagey with their answers is your terminology, your description "single wired end of ring" is a contradiction, you can't have a single wired end of ring, if its single wired its either the end of a radial circuit or already a single/end spur off a final ring circuit.

 

[Highlandbilly]

Sorry my fault i mean single grey twin and earth as opposed to two or three
Most sockets i have changed have 1 grey twin and earth coming in and another all twisted together going to next one
So i presume a socket with only 1 twin and earth is either end of ring or a spur already

Is 4-6 inches to short to spur a socket with a twin and earth cable (across an inner wall) i was thinking maybe wrongly if wires heat up in short distance

 

[littlespark]

Regs state you can’t spur from another spur, but at the moment, we don’t know if the socket you are going to connect to is on a ring, or a radial.

Can you confirm which circuit breaker turns off this particular socket?

 

[telectrix]

the short length of the cable is no problem. and there' is no end to a ring. all sockets must have at least 2 cables connected except if a spur. you can spur off your existing socket with a single piece of 2.5mmT/E, if in doubt, get a qualified electrician in for the cost of a hour or two of his/her time.

 

[Highlandbilly]

Not wanting to get drawn into a regs war as i have read this long thread on another forum and they all seem to disagree and i cant make head or tail of it

https://community.NoLinkingToThis/threads/two-spurs-from-one-socket.57476/

So basically if i have only 1 single twin and earth going to socket its already a spur
And can you spur off a spur
P.S if links to another forum are not allowed my apologies please delete but it was just to give an example why i am now confused

 

[pc1966]

You can have more than one spur off a fused connection unit.

Otherwise you are running cable with ~20A limit off a system with a 32A breaker and that is why the regs say no more than one spur on 2.5mm cable off a ring final circuit. In the RFC the cable is partly in parallel due to the ring, hence the 32A supply limit on 20A-ish cable.

They do allow a double-socket, but the assumption with doubles sockets is the total load is no more than 20A (that is what they are actually certified for). Which is also the reason in kitchens when you do have a few high-power appliances close together that it is recommended to have 2 * single sockets instead of a double.

 

[telectrix]

basically, you can have 1 single or 1 double sicket spurred off a point on a ring. this is so as not to overload the single 2.5mm T/E of the sput being overloaded as it's 27A rated cable protected by a 32A MCB. ( 1 double socket is rated at 20A, so this shoulf not cause an overload. you can fit as many sockets on as spur as you want if fused down (By a 13A FCU) at point of connection to the ring.).

 

[Highlandbilly]

Sorry for being so thick but i have a spur in another room with double socket and in this double socket i have floor lamp plugged into one side and a 4 way fused extension cable into other side with (phone charger/laptop charger/ps4/table lamp

Can hear the overload screams already but have had no problems

 

[pc1966]

The whole point of wiring regulations is so it is safe without the person using it knowing anything, either about the installation details or electrical practice.

What is to stop a guest or the next owner from plugging in some electric fires and/or extension leads for heavy loads in both locations?

 

[HappyHippyDad]

Hello @Highlandbilly .

First of all you you need to determine if it is a ring or a radial. If it's a ring then you cant spur off it and will need a Fused Connection Unit. If it's a radial then it may be ok if it is protected by a 20A MCB or less. You then need to do your dead tests, checking for continuity of CPC (earth) and insulation resistance other wise you could be making a bad situation worse. Then you can connect up the new socket, obviously not too tight and not loose otherwise you may start a fire. Then your live tests with your tester to check the earth fault loop impedance, as if it's not earthed it will be dangerous. Then just write out the required Minor works certificate and your good to go.

Oh yes, keeping the cables in the correct zones, checking ring continuity if it's a ring to make sure it's not broken and could then possibly overheat. I expect there's other bits I've missed but you get the gist that there's a fair bit to it and if you do it wrong then you put yourself and your family in danger. If you do it right (or pay an electrician £100) then you don't. Good luck.

 

[littlespark]

Sorry for being so thick but i have a spur in another room with double socket and in this double socket i have floor lamp plugged into one side and a 4 way fused extension cable into other side with (phone charger/laptop charger/ps4/table lamp

Can hear the overload screams already but have had no problems

In this situation, one side of the double socket is (should be) fused at 3A for the lamp, and the extension lead has a 13A fuse in it... So you cannot overload whatever gets plugged in.

(There are other common sense guidelines concerning extension leads, as in some are only rated at 10A, so the plastic melts before any protective fuse operates. You cant plug in a heater, and a kettle without having some problems. A lot of cheap ones are also of lesser quality, so can cause problems with overheating just because the socket hasnt got a tight fit with the appliance plug)

To do your job to the regs, you would need to add a fused connection unit BEFORE your existing socket, and then add your new one.... creating a fused spur of two "points"
This is dependent if the existing socket is on a ring, or on the end of a radial. A radial would be protected by a 16A breaker and wouldnt need the 13A fused spur.

Also you will need to considor RCD protection if not already present

 

[Mike Johnson]

Sorry my fault i mean single grey twin and earth as opposed to two or three
Most sockets i have changed have 1 grey twin and earth coming in and another all twisted together going to next one
So i presume a socket with only 1 twin and earth is either end of ring or a spur already

Is 4-6 inches to short to spur a socket with a twin and earth cable (across an inner wall) i was thinking maybe wrongly if wires heat up in short distance

If the previous sockets you have changed have only one grey T&E coming in then its either a spur or a end of radial, ITS NOT AN END OF RING, sorry to shout, but you have said this a couple of times and not taken notice of what is posted, your latest incongruous remark is "another all twisted together" what is all twisted together? We are all trying to help here, but your lack of knowledge is very worrying/confusing.

 

[telectrix]

Sorry for being so thick but i have a spur in another room with double socket and in this double socket i have floor lamp plugged into one side and a 4 way fused extension cable into other side with (phone charger/laptop charger/ps4/table lamp

Can hear the overload screams already but have had no problems

you won't see an overload. the extension lead itself is fused at 13A.

 

[Highlandbilly]

Ok which one of these would you do if you had to do one (forget regs for a minute)
Spar off the spar or spar off socket where the spar comes from (which has a kettle plugged in 24/7

 

[Mike Johnson]

I don't know what it is your taking, but you need to cut down. ?

 

[Mike Johnson]

Ok which one of these would you do if you had to do one (forget regs for a minute)
Spur off the spur or spur off socket where the spur comes from (which has a kettle plugged in 24/7

 

[brianmoooore]

You are (probably) attempting to feed a second spur from an exiting spur off of a RFC.
If you were fitting the second spur immediately adjacent to the existing spur, using six inches of wire, then it would be contrary to the wiring regulations, but safe, and certainly safer than the use of adaptors in the existing spur.
You are proposing fitting the second spur, still with just six inches of wire, to the opposite side of the wall. This is still contrary to the wiring regs. for the same reason as the scenario above, but in this case, is not safe, because of the increased possibility of a heavy load being connected to both spurs.
You might argue that you would never do this, but fixed wiring has to be installed not just for your safety, but for the safety of those that come after you as well.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Highlandbilly, it does not matter how many time you ask the question you are not going to get the answer you want, until you can correctly identify the circuit you want to break into and even then you may not get the answer you want, we are not being awkward, but your descriptions/questions are a bit worrying and we are trying to protect you and yours and whoever comes after you.

 

[telectrix]

your descriptions are a bit worrying.

what's more worrying is who the hell decided to supply electricity to aberdeenshire????

 

[Zerax]

Assuming that you do indeed have a ring final circuit... although I'm not yet convinced... you need to look at Appendix 15 on page 505 of the 18th edition... nice picture there that will show you what you should be doing. I would put up a pic... but I'm not allowed to reproduce it.

 

[Moley]

what's more worrying is who the hell decided to supply electricity to aberdeenshire????

It's not that surprising. We've even got electricity in Wales now. I hear we'll be getting running water next ?