Wet Locations

[Cookie]

In wet locations a body resistance of 200 ohms is assumed, and disconnection times go down to 0.2 seconds in a 230 volts supply (0.4 110 volt supply), is that correct? Or is this not required in BS7671?

 

[brianmoooore]

There may not be a 3m from the shower, as was the case with one I was involved in, where there was a shower recessed half way along a bedroom wall.

 

[LastManOnline]

Still doesn't make sense. The switch plate, screws and toggle would not be energized.

Correct. Still the reality in the British is that the conventional rocker switch poses a danger. Not quite sure about the basis for that conclusion. Most other countries don't seem to experience it.Interestingly we don, t give a second thought to operating a 230 shower push switch with water swirling down around our feet but operating a rocker switch while standing on a dry bathroom floor fills us with dread for some reason. Of course, regarding the shower you might say "manufacturers instructions" allow it. True. But next time you take apart a shower unit observe the level of"sophistication" in the shower push switch. Educational

 

[loz2754]

All discussions in this thread up to now have been for conventional bathrooms.
What's the take on cases where a shower or bath is open to a bedroom, with no intervening door? This could be the set up where you have a walk in/walk out shower room, immediately behind a wall at the head of the bed, cases where there's a shower cubicle actually in a bedroom, or the fashion for having a bath near a bed (Escape to the Chateau style)

The regulations apply to a ROOM CONTAINING a bath or a shower. That's my take.

 

[DPG]

The regulations apply to a ROOM CONTAINING a bath or a shower. That's my take.

Agree.

Mind you, what about a bathroom with a bed in it? Where does it end?

 

[brianmoooore]

The regulations apply to a ROOM CONTAINING a bath or a shower. That's my take.

So who's going to tell the customer that they can't have any sockets in their bedroom?

 

[pc1966]

So who's going to tell the customer that they can't have any sockets in their bedroom?

The London estate agent who sold them a room < 3m across with bed and bath in it?

 

[brianmoooore]

Room is 3.8m x 2.7m (=10m2, so quite big enough to be a double bedroom), with the 1200 x 760 shower recessed into the middle of a 3.6m wall, alongside a built in wardrobe from the shower side wall to the corner of the room. Only furniture is a double bed, with its head against the wall opposite the shower, and a dressing table on the end wall, so not at all cramped.
No point in that room is more than 3m from one side or other of the shower doors, except for one opposite corner, which is marginally more, but unfortunately is where the room door is.

 

[pc1966]

No point in that room is more than 3m from one side or other of the shower doors, except for one opposite corner, which is marginally more, but unfortunately is where the room door is.

Well they are stuffed really!

Option 1 is to fit sockets not in compliance with section 701.512.3 (which is notifiable work), and in doing so be up before the beak if anything goes wrong. I can't see any professional electrician doing that.

Option 2 is to have the shower area boxed in so it forms a separate room. Then the only electrical restrictions would apply to any additional light needed for it (unless "window" in to the bedroom). I have no idea what would constitute a valid "room separator" in the eyes of building control so really who tackles this would need to get advice for that.

 

[pc1966]

Of course, regarding the shower you might say "manufacturers instructions" allow it. True. But next time you take apart a shower unit observe the level of"sophistication" in the shower push switch. Educational

This aspect is unfortunately a very real aspect of the regulations (to "take in to account" those instruction) and if not doing so you open yourself to the liability of ensuring system safety.

Another example, and directly related to this discussion, is the provision of a USB charging socket in a bathroom. Great! We hear the crowds jubilant cheers as what they really want to do in the bath is phone or browse "speciality videos" on their tablets, etc.

Ah, but safety - the USB is low voltage (5V) so not an issue, but can you find a charger unit that meets the SELV requirements for special location use? Yes, indeed we can, and this is one such module:

MK USB Charging Module White - Euro Module Coms Module - White | MK (K5837WHI)

Now neglecting the whole safety issue of eBay crap that is not safe by other, we seem to have found a solution from a reputable company. But then you read the instructions and it says "Suitable for fixed installations in dry interior locations only".

So no, we don't have an answer. Now the issue here is not that the module might have a short life due to moisture condensing in it, but the far more serious aspect that it may not be able to meet the insulation creepage/clearance under 100% humidity, etc. Maybe it does, I don't know. So I could not defend installing it in a bathroom just in case.

 

[brianmoooore]

The bedroom I described above is not a hypothetical case, it's a room in a barn conversion that I wired in the not too distant past, and the solution I adopted was 'option 2' (sort of), convincing myself that the shower doors constituted room doors. No sockets were fitted on the wall with the shower, or on that wall side of the walls joining the shower wall, so all over 2.7m away, but none quite 3.
Coincidently, this was the one job (plus the other barn on site) that I had to bring in someone to 'sign off', as a result of a state of the all out war between building control and my client meant that they wouldn't accept my fifty years of experience and previous self certification just to be bloody minded.
Places were signed off by the boss of a firm of local electrical contractors without any mention of this bedroom, although he did get arsy about a 4G light switch in a bathroom in the other barn, even though it was well outside the zones.

 

[LastManOnline]

This aspect is unfortunately a very real aspect of the regulations (to "take in to account" those instruction) and if not doing so you open yourself to the liability of ensuring system safety.

I was, nt intending to suggest ignoring "manufacturers instructions". It was more to suggest that the manufacturers own standards are not always the "gold standard".

 

[LastManOnline]

No sockets were fitted on the wall with the shower, or on that wall side of the walls joining the shower wall, so all over 2.7m away, but none quite 3.

When sockets were permitted to be installed in bathrooms for the first time,it was a seismic shift in our electrical culture. It was a line that no-one expected to be crossed. Now that its happened I expect to see the distances you are allowed to install them to shift closer to what you see in other countries, but gradually over time

 

[pc1966]

When sockets were permitted to be installed in bathrooms for the first time,it was a seismic shift in our electrical culture. It was a line that no-one expected to be crossed. Now that its happened I expect to see the distances you are allowed to install them to shift closer to what you see in other countries, but gradually over time

Quite possibly. Earlier I had, for some reason, assumed it was 2m as out of hand-to-hand reach, but in fact looking at the regs it is currently 3m.

 

[brianmoooore]

2m would be fine. It's the extra metre that makes it difficult to comply, and is frankly ridiculous!

 

[LastManOnline]

2m would be fine. It's the extra metre that makes it difficult to comply, and is frankly ridiculous!

There is no rationale for the 3 meter rule.Its an arbitrary distance that I believe (open to correction here) will be found nowhere else except in a British or Irish bathroom. Personally I believe its because the message of "no sockets in bathrooms" went from good guidance to religious status over many decades and we, ve boxed ourselves in to a corner.The backtracking to more sensible distances will need to be done in a manner that reflects that.