What is a Domestic Installer ?

[Dave Buchan]

Hi guys,

Here's an interesting one for you, if you look at the attachment on this post from the IET they define a domestic installer as " not an electrician "

If you go to the niceic website and click the 'FIND ELECTRICIAN' tab and select 'ALL ELECTRICAL WORK' it will display various domestic installers and approved contractors in your local area.

So is the domestic installer an ELECTRICIAN?

According to the people who write the national safety standards apparently this is not the case.......

Yet the guys who regulate them for crucial safety reasons seem to know otherwise.....

So who is right?

The IET

or

NICEIC

 

[Adam W]

As I usually say when this topic comes up I don't have any problem with anyone retraining (jobs get outsourced, the market changes, sometimes even whole industries become redundant, so you either retrain or spend the rest of you life on benefits bemoaning whichever prime minister was in power at the time), but to me this idea of having 'no other choice' than to cut corners doesn't transpose well into this industry.
"I didn't have any other choice other than to do a 6 week course because I have a mortgage and kids" doesn't seem far off from:
"I didn't have any other choice than to add a socket to the lighting circuit because the customer didn't want a mess made."
Similarly a customer is unlikely to want to hear "I've got mouths to feed" as an excuse for overcharging for a job because someone who is supposed to be a professional hasn't got the knowledge or experience to make a profit on a job while still doing it properly; if it were me I would rather have the job done properly and for a reasonable price by someone who didn't take a shortcut with their training, even if it means getting the job done by someone who hasn't got kids - ask any customer and they'd probably prefer to see '20 years experience' on the side of a tradesman's van than 'I've got kids to feed'.

 

[gibo]

I am a domestic installer. I am gaining experience by working in domestic properties modifying or replacing electrical installations, adhering to 17th edition regs. completely legally. I need this experience to give me sufficient fundamental knowledge in order to study towards city and guilds 2391 and NVQ3. I need the NVQ3 in order to get a JIB gold card so I can call myself an electrician.This is the only way I can achieve this as I was too old for an apprenticeship when I started training. unfortunately some "proper sparks" on here do not want me to be able to do this. equally there are many that are supportive of people that have demonstrated that they are capable of passing all the required exams

 

[wade88]

As I usually say when this topic comes up I don't have any problem with anyone retraining (jobs get outsourced, the market changes, sometimes even whole industries become redundant, so you either retrain or spend the rest of you life on benefits bemoaning whichever prime minister was in power at the time), but to me this idea of having 'no other choice' than to cut corners doesn't transpose well into this industry.
"I didn't have any other choice other than to do a 6 week course because I have a mortgage and kids" doesn't seem far off from:
"I didn't have any other choice than to add a socket to the lighting circuit because the customer didn't want a mess made."
Similarly a customer is unlikely to want to hear "I've got mouths to feed" as an excuse for overcharging for a job because someone who is supposed to be a professional hasn't got the knowledge or experience to make a profit on a job while still doing it properly; if it were me I would rather have the job done properly and for a reasonable price by someone who didn't take a shortcut with their training, even if it means getting the job done by someone who hasn't got kids - ask any customer and they'd probably prefer to see '20 years experience' on the side of a tradesman's van than 'I've got kids to feed'.

Your being so ignorant its unreal. You think because someone got their qualifications a different way means they are automatically going to do a bad job and intentionaly compromise peoples safety to cut corners?! Having repsonsibilites and priorities like children and a mortgage are simply aspects that drive me and others to get somewhere and achieve things, not just be cowboy traders trying to make a quick buck hiding behind those things as an excuse.

I fully intent to provide the most professional and safe service i possibly can , and have absolutely no grief in asking for help when i need it if im un sure...hence being on here everyday reading what people have to say.

There is more then one way to skin a cat, and just because someone didnt go the original route by no means says they are going to be bad at what they do or any less professional and safe. Us 5 day wonders are fully aware of our different skill sets to you lads are i only speak for myself here, but i dont for one second believe becuase i hold some similar qualifications that i am "competing" with you on a level playing field because im not. I like many others, am simply trying to start a career. Simple as that.

 

[gibo]

and this is the only way to start that career after the apprenticeship route is closed to us. show me another way and I'll happily explore it

 

[malcolmsanford]

I am a domestic installer. I am gaining experience by working in domestic properties modifying or replacing electrical installations, adhering to 17th edition regs. completely legally. I need this experience to give me sufficient fundamental knowledge in order to study towards city and guilds 2391 and NVQ3. I need the NVQ3 in order to get a JIB gold card so I can call myself an electrician.This is the only way I can achieve this as I was too old for an apprenticeship when I started training. unfortunately some "proper sparks" on here do not want me to be able to do this. equally there are many that are supportive of people that have demonstrated that they are capable of passing all the required exams

This emotive subject is not new it was just as relevant 30 odd years ago when apprenticeships were being faded out and the 236 course was introduced as a 2 year option, I even remember the name for the students/trainees, "Diluties", so with the advent of the now in-famous 7 week course ridicule is bound to be prevelant.

I'm afraid that the first first sentance in the post, highlights the problem with the 7 week course. The word "experience". When you quote for work do you actually tell your client that your hoping to gain experience on their home and the work you do for them, as part of your learning curve? I suspect not. If you do then I admire you for your honesty. If you don't do you not think that in some terms you are not giving the customer a true reflection of your ability and therefore your work.

I can not comment for others, but as far as I'm concerned I have no problems with people retraining or switching careers, I have done this myself throughout my time in the electrical industry, What I take exception to is the lack of proper training that is now on offer. Not all "Fast Track" DIs are incompetant, the same as not all time served electriciana are, but what the majority of "Fast Track" DI's are is inexperienced, and IMO not the finished article to be working on peoples homes.

 

[gibo]

I have my own business and work alongside a recently retired electrician friend of a friend. he is teaching me the practical side. my customers so far have been friends and family of mine and of his and they have all been happy with the work done and the price. this is the closest thing to an apprenticeship that I can do. most DIs try to get some experience by volunteering or working with electricians that they know. only the foolish would attempt to go alone without it. unfortunately some do but I'm pretty sure the word of mouth advertising that they will rely on will not be very favourable

 

[fezzie]

Don't you just love sweeping generalisations. All 4 week DI's sh*t, all apprenticed electricians brilliant.

 

[Adam W]

Your being so ignorant its unreal.

What kind of question or statement do you think you would have to make for that response to be considered anything less than rude?

You think because someone got their qualifications a different way means they are automatically going to do a bad job and intentionaly compromise peoples safety to cut corners?! Having repsonsibilites and priorities like children and a mortgage are simply aspects that drive me and others to get somewhere and achieve things, not just be cowboy traders trying to make a quick buck hiding behind those things as an excuse.

No, I think you've fallen at the first hurdle by cutting corners with your training. Nobody sets out to be a 'cowboy' or intentionally cut corners or try to rip people off, it's something which just happens with a naturally slap-dash attitude.
I'm sure you think you're doing a wonderful job and are blissfully unaware otherwise, but asking questions on a forum are no substitute for seeing something done first hand many times and in different situations.

There is more then one way to skin a cat,... ...I like many others, am simply trying to start a career. Simple as that.

This is the problem with the DI short courses - they weren't intended to be an alternative route for people entering the industry, they were intended for people who already have the experience and just need the bits of paper. To expand their target audience and make a bit of extra money the training providers have marketed these courses as helping people to tap a lucrative market, with the end result that people are finishing the courses with precious little extra knowledge, just several thousand pounds lighter.
Take the 17th edition (2382) for example - it's a multiple guess test on extracting information from a book. Whether the book is on wiring regulations or fly fishing makes no odds - without the book in front of you, or without knowing where to look, it may just as well be a book on fly fishing.

As I already said I've got no problem with people training later in life, in fact I didn't start until I was 26; what I do have a problem with is people cutting corners then claiming they didn't have any other choice.

 

[Adam W]

and this is the only way to start that career after the apprenticeship route is closed to us. show me another way and I'll happily explore it

C&G 2330 and 2356, same as you do with an apprenticeship, difference is you have to fund it yourself and it's harder to get work placements, but then nobody said it was going to be easy.

The new 2357 looks to be harder or even impossible to get into due to having to be already employed in the industry, which I think is a bad idea.

 

[Adam W]

Don't you just love sweeping generalisations. All 4 week DI's sh*t, all apprenticed electricians brilliant.

Nobody is saying that except you.

 

[fezzie]

Maybe you should read some of the earlier posts

 

[Adam W]

Maybe you should read some of the earlier posts

I have, and I have read plenty of other threads on this subject; nobody ever says what you said, rather that some time-served electricians are rubbish, some fast track DIs are good.
Maybe you should just quote someone else who has actually said what you're saying... Or are you just making generalisations?

 

[fezzie]

The fact is I for one agree that the best way to enter the electrical industry is through an apprenticeship. Unfortunately that is not always available to the older career changer. Mr Prescott lowered the bar and a fair few people stepped over it.
Supervised experience is an important point, I don't believe I would have been competent had I not worked for 4 years alongside a 25 year apprenticed spark. This added to my '81, '91, '77, EAL's, MCS registration and part p reg with Napit and Elecsa leads me to believe I can wire a plug, (you may disagree).
I stick to what I know (domestic). Also I have never earned anywhere near my old wage even now, for me at least it was never about the money. Feel free to judge, I don't mind. If I was in your shoes I might be a little bit peeved too.

 

[Electricalserv]

Here is where the problem lies.

Those who where lucky enough to complete a full apprentiship (government & employer paid, I may add) feel as though they are being cheated by those who have not done all their qualifications. Mainly the ones that are hard to do without employment and funding. NVQ3 & AM2.(I will add funding is in place for apprentices mainly from the British tax payer, so you guys who have been lucky enough have done really well out the system already!)


In some ways I can feel your frustration because of the length of time it took you to do all your qualifications and how hard you worked over the 4 or 5 years to gain them, but..... This is where I don't agree.


As we all know there isn't enough apprentiships to go round, so we need another route for those unfortunate thousands to get on the ladder. By this I am saying its not your trade, just because you where an apprentice! Sparking isn't rocket science and unfortunately it can be learnt by other methods than a proper time served apprenticeship. We need a diverse group of sparks from domestic to commercial to industrial. It only makes it worse when you constantly read guys saying it should be proper sparks, time served, who can work in this trade. That is complete and utter rubbish. Most of you will never have the problem of competing for work against an unqualified DI like I have daily. So those of you who work in the heavy commercial and industrial need not comment because it doesn't involve you, at all.


I am quite frankly sick of those who got on the ladder from the age of 16 complaining....Look on the brightside you where damn lucky to get that apprentiships because there where thousands behind you who wanted it.


My problem with DI's comes directly. I worked as a spark from the age of 18. Unfortunately for me the guys I worked for where unwilling to commit to a full employment scheme for me and never put me through an apprentiship. All my funding came from myself, I had To beg, steal and borrow just to get onto the 2330 course and then again the following year to do the 2330 level 3 course. I completed it then moved onto the 17th edition and then the 2391. I am in my own eyes a time served spark because I have the all the qualification I needed to quit the rubbish and set up on my own. Something that I'd always dreamt of doing. Why? because this industry is one of the hardest to break into and lots of people kept closeing doors in my face. I watched lads from priveledged backgrounds takle all the apprentiships. Not because they where any better than me but because the father knew so & so from the pub & thats how this trade works. The DI matter is more of an interest to me than any of you commercial or industrial sparks because I am competing with them daily. People who haven't been through the 3 year tech cert then the extra year and a half waiting to sit the 2391.


I don't like the DI but there has to be another way through the door than a full apprentiship otherwise there would be a shortage of sparks like it or not. That is the facts!

So carry on with the jelousy talk of others (less fortunate in the past, not ghetting an apprentiship) trying to do well for themselves of there own back.


I must add I totally disagree with the 5DW courses and if I could have it stopped it would be done now but its not going to happen. As the IET have said a DI with a level 2 qualification is not an electrician. A DI with a level 3 qualification is. So no matter how much we bicker about this trivial matter the IET have explained it.



Ban me all you want but if you aren't allowed to discuss on this forum and disagree theres no point being on it. Its those who become abusive and use vulgar language who should be banned!

 

[Adam W]

Supervised experience is an important point, I don't believe I would have been competent had I not worked for 4 years alongside a 25 year apprenticed spark.

Well that's a bit different to walking out of an unrelated profession such as IT, doing a 6 week course, buying a van and putting an advert in the paper; I don't recall having heard of anyone who's successfully managed to do that, or even get any kind of job after - most that I hear of finish the course and can't even get unpaid experience, or go out into the big wide world and realise they don't know anything, but most if not all say they paid too much for what they got.

Would you have been as happy to work alongside a 6 week fast track DI? What if 'taking the fast track route' was the only option available to them?

 

[gibo]

c&g2356 is NVQ3 which I have already said I'm going to do. the training centre I went to said they could enrol me on it but didn't recommend it until I had at least 6 months of building up my experience. some other training centres would have just taken my money and enrolled me straight away

 

[1shortcircuit]

I must be completely honest. I do feel for the "Proper Sparks" who decided that they wanted to specialise in the Domestic sector.

They have had it rough recently but it's not solely down to the short course electrician. I personally do not believe these courses have actually produced too many candidates that could offer competition to the "Proper Domestic Spark".

I believe what has hit them the hardest is the fact that so much contract work has been shelved that the influx of "Proper Commercial/Industrial Sparks" has been the problem.

This then takes the argument back to "Part P"! If it was drummed into the Public about it's meaning/importance and consequences if not adhered to then perhaps the "Proper Domestic Spark" would still be laughing?

I am a short course student... I have taken 18 months to work my way through my Tutor Modular Assignments, Passed my Exams and await my Practical Assessment at the end of the month.

I have been lucky though because during this 18 months I have been lucky enough to gain work experience via three different sparks all of which have given me positive feedback. I have worked on several rewires which have all been massively different ranging from 2 up's 2 down's unoccupied to massive immaculate 3 storey occupied properties and complete sh** hole Council Properties.

Will this change anyone's view about me still being a 5 week wonder??? More than likely not but it does not bother me because I know that I will be entering the trade with the relevant qualifications AND a relevant amount of experience BUT I am also fully aware of my limitations and not afraid to STOP and ask a question.

I have walked off of MASSIVE construction sites in the past and left Cranes standing idle because I was not happy with loads that Supervisors/Managers wanted to be lifted! I have stood my ground against Site Managers and told them there is absolutely no way that something is being done because it's unsafe and instructed them that if I do see someone else do it then the Health & Safety Executive will be up their a*** hole.

 

[dandb]

How come everyone is blasting a domestic installer?

 

[Electricalserv]

Because some lack experience and qualifications yet to the unsuspecting customer they are qualified electricians. When in all honesty they are not. If you take a look at my post above I have some sympothy for them but not much!

 

[fezzie]

I can only talk for myself and can not vouch for others. My first registration job was a complete rewire of a 3 bed semi.
A spur of a RFC and a three day 81/82 course seems woefully under qualified to me. But that's just a personal opinion. I used to cringe a bit when the misses told people I'm an electrician, but it's lessened over time.

 

[fezzie]

Scrub all that. I'm a crap "electrician"
Messing around on here and I've not put an iso on my inline fan.

 

[malcolmsanford]

Fezzie
Supervised experience is an important point, I don't believe I would have been competent had I not worked for 4 years alongside a 25 year apprenticed spark.

1shortcircuit
I have been lucky though because during this 18 months I have been lucky enough to gain work experience via three different sparks all of which have given me positive feedback

The 2 posts highlight what I was saying. The 2 lads were lucky to have the guidance of an Experienced sparks to point out mistakes and basically teach them the trade, which is what an apprenticeship is, so in esscence it could be classed a "mini" apprenticeship.

But these highlights were not done through a government backed scheme, the 2 lads were a fortunate minority. I doubt very much that during the intense course they were advised that after you complete and pass the course you will not be really competant in your trade, in fact the reverse I suspect is told, that after passing you will be competant.

So we have a situation of 2 guys that continued to learn through the guidance of experienced electricians and the normal occurance of a 5 week student that is let loose on a really unsuspecting public, where he will work in someones home without any experience at all. Alas I think the 2nd scenario is the majority.

For me that is the crux of all this, 5 years or 5 weeks, without the guidance of someone that will pick up your mistakes and teach you what is right and wrong, the only way you will learn without this is through trial and error and that is making my industry far less safe, and a tradegy waiting to happen in someone's home, by an electrician that just did not know any better, because he was not shown.

It is not the fault of the accountant for 20 yrs that is sold the dream of in 7 weeks you will become a fully qualified Domestic Installer, it is the UK's fault, and successive governments that have treated our industry with utter contempt. Because in general electricity is a safe energy source, it is treated with disdain by those in power who believe that in reality you don't need to train someone to do it for 5 yrs, segregate the industry into domestic, fire alarms, BMS, CCTV, Intruder Alarms, Green energy and even for crying out loud Emergency Lighting, that way we can train people for a bare minimum at a far cheaper cost, and pay far less, than a properly trained person.

40 years ago when I trained in this industry it was special, we were top of the pile, over the years I have personally seen it denergrated and abused by various governments to the point where we command little if anything above minimum wage. For me it is a sad situation where until deaths are common in society due to incompetant and poorly trained electricians, rather than the rarity, I can never see changes occuring

 

[wade88]

I think this subject has been done to death, and not much progress is being made to coming up with any sort of solution we agree on. I, again, only speak for myself here, but when i decided to pack in following a career in the police and do something else, and then subsequenbtly looked into re-training in electrics, i did what probably thousands of others do and typed into to google, "become and electrician".

I had no idea how to go about it, no idea where to go to talk to someone about it and absolutely no idea what it involved. So when i got my search results back and top of the pile was RF training Birmingham, i made an assumption that this was a valid route. It was not until me and all the other lads were 2-3 weeks in that we ALL realised how micky mouse it was.

I have never once disagreed with how un-thorough the course content is, lets face it, that sh*t is basic and thin at best. We didnt even chase a wall....When i first joined this forum i had a long moan about how rubbish i felt it was and all us guys on the course made complaints throughout our course term. I for one was most disliked by my tutor because i asked too many questions...

I guess my point is, that i understand the pit falls of such courses for sure, particularly when you are working on something so dangerous and in other peoples homes, Novus is right when saying corners cannot be cut, but on the other hand, i dont know one person who has done one o these courses and seemingly no one on here, who has just gone straight out and started working on their own without desperately trying to find someone to work along for the experiance. Its just a stepping stone and a way of opening the door.

Im positive that us 7 week wonders are ALL fully aware that we need to gain experiance and we all are./ Just a different way to you other guys.

Instead of being at each others throats al day about this and seperating the trade, i just think it makes more sense, to try and help. I know reading posts on here isnt a subsitute for anything else Novus but it keeps involved in the area and just keeps the brain ticking about the subject. All you lads are pretty safe so the banter isnt bad either

Its time we helped each other, no tried to trip each other up

 

[Adam W]

The problem is that employers don't see a short course as a 'way in', they see it as a 'shortcut'; the recognised 'way in' is to start the full course then start looking for work as a 'mate' while you're doing it.

What I've found from this forum and others is many of the people doing these fast track courses think their life experience counts in lieu of doing the full course and they just need a bit of paper to get a van and go out charging old ladies for putting plugs on table lamps; when I was at college whenever we learned anything new the lecturer would tell us "the more you learn the less you know", referring to the idea that we were learning things we didn't realise needed to be learned, for example you don't suddenly get to a certain age or a certain point in life and suddenly realise how a squirrel cage motor differs from a shaded pole motor, or the importance of balancing phases to avoid neutral current.

The realisation that you don't know it all has to come at some point, whether it be at college, when you've blagged your first agency job, or after you've changed your consumer unit at home for your assessment, spent money on a van, insurance, part P subscription, and gone to work in someone's house and end up running away because you're out of your depth.

Yes the short courses help form part of a 'different route', but that route starts with 10 years or so of electrical work.

 

[wade88]

I totally agree Novus, 100%, and in honesty, back in september when i started the course, if i knew the end result upon paying £7500 and spending 7 weeks of my life in a dingy hotel on a prostitute and drug dealer ridden road in birmingham, i would certainly have considered alternative options...if i was aware of what they were.

Ignorance is no excsue granted, but its hard to know where to turn when you simply have no idea at all. I felt like i was making a good choice and starting something positive. I crave the experiance, and fortunately my job now allows me to gain some as i go, but i spend a lot of time trying to read up myself and buying lots of text books to keep refreshing what little i know.

I mentioned on a post when i first joined, that there is one thing i know for sure and that is i know nothing. And that saying translates to every walk of life. A plasterer can blag his way out of a bad job without risk to other people, same can be said for a plumber, you just get wet, but this game is different because people can die. Naive it may be, but i understand the risks of doing something badly, or not understanding fully what it is im trying to do and so its on that basis that i personally dont do anything without consulting first or being supervised if possible, and i hope that others in my situation understand that too.