What would you do?

[polo1]

Just had an interesting "discussion" with a fellow spark. Job was/is to replace a single lighting pendant in a first floor bathroom (loft above) with five IPX5 downlighters. Cables clipped to top side of 50mm roof trusses. Board only has RCD covering three ring mains and no spare way on this side of the board. Switch drop is between two sheets of plasterboard with a two inch gap and is not being modified.

RCBO or not for the amended lighting circuit?????

Regards

 

[sedgy34]

OK GUYS!!!!! pull the switch drop out fit pull switch alter lighting for spotlights now theres no requirement is there if you want to disect it.

 

[needasparks]

Bang on tel.
Too many so called sparks now try to get away with fitting as little as possible. until the claims start coming in and then finding no MWC was issued so mr sparky has no leg to stand on.
quick cash job at the time but its the shortcut jobs that come and bite ya later.

 

[telectrix]

yes ther eis requirement for RCD. 701.411.3.3 applies. end of.

 

[Paul.M]

Are the lights within zone?

Do we have to provide rcd extra protection for existing cables whilst doing an extension of a circuit? (add an extra socket to any circuit out of zones and not used for external use)?

We all agree to put it on an rcd but show me a reg that says that we have to supply rcd protection for an out of zone circuit that your adding on to? Let's remember that this is not a new install, its a modification to an existing install. As said before, interesting question for a Sunday night.

 

[ipf]

Getting towards 'Time for a pint'

 

[Strima]

Pendant in a bathroom ? really.

Had one the other week, batton holder with incandescent lamp in zone 1 right next to the shower head. No chance of easily moving due to the metal conduit encased in solid concrete, very nice 50's build. Managed to find an IP rated holder that fitted straight onto the conduit without modification.

 

[sedgy34]

yes ther eis requirement for RCD. 701.411.3.3 applies. end of.

1, i repeat from earlier then for those not taking note rcd in loft in same work location!!!!
2, also remedial works without cables in walls or in walls more than 50mm dont require rcd protection now end ov!!!!

 

[telectrix]

Are the lights within zone?

Do we have to provide rcd extra protection for existing cables whilst doing an extension of a circuit? (add an extra socket to any circuit out of zones and not used for external use)?

We all agree to put it on an rcd but show me a reg that says that we have to supply rcd protection for an out of zone circuit that your adding on to? Let's remember that this is not a new install, its a modification to an existing install. As said before, interesting question for a Sunday night.

it's a question of how far you can go before bringing the work up to current regs. if a simple like replacement. i.e. changing 1 fitting for a new single fitting, then i would agree, no RCD required, but modifying the circuit by fitting 5 downlighters is, IMO, a major enough change to warrant complying with 7671(2011).

 

[jumpin jax]

You could install a 3a fused spur to run the bathroom lights of then it would be rcd protected via the ring final if there is a socket circuit handy

 

[sedgy34]

Bang on tel.
Too many so called sparks now try to get away with fitting as little as possible. until the claims start coming in and then finding no MWC was issued so mr sparky has no leg to stand on.
quick cash job at the time but its the shortcut jobs that come and bite ya later.

my comments were because of the different answers given not what i would do as there is a switch wire in the wall less than 50mm within the same location but what i mentioned is acceptable and an rcd spur in loft would suffice.

 

[Guitarist]

701.411.3.3

Changing 1 pendant for 5 downlighters is changing characteristics for that circuit so I would personally insist on RCD protection as it is not "like for like".

 

[telectrix]

at least someone agrees with me.

 

[Paul.M]

No its not like for like as I explained in my other post.

What is the actual question here?

Out of zones in a bathroom, does an addition to a lighting circuit need to be on an rcd?

Yes we would all like to put it on an rcd BUT what do the regs say?

Changing the characteristics of a circuit by changing one light pendant to 5 down lights? No. (only over current).

Nobody has quoted a reg that explains this situation. Telectrix regs is for new installs as per 7671 2012 and not for the hard wired cables at the time they were installed. No offence Tel but no one has come up with a definitive answear yet.

 

[Guitarist]

Any circuit in a bathroom must be on an RCD, regardless of zones etc (701.411.3.3) . IF the OP has not extended the cable but merely wired a JB where the original pendant was (and the downlights have their own cabling), then I can understand the argument. If, on the other hand, he has extended the original cabling then characteristics have changed.

 

[sedgy34]

No its not like for like as I explained in my other post.

What is the actual question here?

Out of zones in a bathroom, does an addition to a lighting circuit need to be on an rcd?

Yes we would all like to put it on an rcd BUT what do the regs say?

Changing the characteristics of a circuit by changing one light pendant to 5 down lights? No. (only over current).

Nobody has quoted a reg that explains this situation. Telectrix regs is for new installs as per 7671 2012 and not for the hard wired cables at the time they were installed. No offence Tel but no one has come up with a definitive answear yet.

i mentioned this in earlier post ive sadly checked that reg out and it doesnt refer to the question