Who owns a grade card?

[Guest77]

Just wondering after seeing a few threads of late regarding them, I am aware it is a gold card today, out of interest who has a grade card of somekind? post up what you have, lets see how many on the forum is actually a card holder, just out of interest, it doesn't mean much, I know several brilliant sparks who never even did an apprenticeship, they are retired now though.


I will start, I am a JIB gold card holder with Site Technician stamped on mine, next please.

 

[wozz]

i've got a b&q trade card.

Same here radiators at very good prices.

 

[wozz]

This has gone rather off topic.

If you want a jib card get one if you cant get one maybe try to reason with them if you have other supporting evidence, something which i have heard they are fine with.

If you cant get one dont slag them off for sticking to their guns and bucking the downward spiral in this industry.

If you have a apprentice try to understand that they are trying to achieve before telling them its a waste of time.

If you do slag the JIB off for wanting a JIB card as a way of proving work experience , ask yourself where the industry is going without it, i think its only one place.

Im not a crusader for the jib, or the nvq both have their problems but i am yet to hear about a better system, and a new system isnt the answer it seems as change every 30 years is still too often!

 

[ipf]

The C course doesnt exist, and there is no replacement for it. times have changed for the worse in that respect.

So you are promoting academic only qualifications with no real life experience? is that how you want to trade progress? You want no new electricians to have something to separate them from Electrical Trainee? if so the colleges may as well shut and leave it to the training providers?

I'll guarantee 100% that every person who completed the A, B and C certificates, (as was, admittedly), completed a full apprenticeship.........unlike many NVQers

 

[7029 dave]

I'll guarantee 100% that every person who completed the A, B and C certificates, (as was admittedly), completed a full apprenticeship.........unlike many NVQers

I will go 100% with that statement too.!! Why is he banging on about NVQ, for guys that have been going for years. lol

 

[wozz]

it isnt coming back mate its a shame but there we go, i will take your word for it they all completed it, was it a purely academic course?

The point is why slag off what we have now? Do you honestly think the industry is better without some evidence of actual work included in a apprenticeship?

if so expect 'apprentices' to work in local supermarkets while not at college.

Many NVQers, so many who qualified in the last 30 years didnt complete apprenticeships? ok. Who was signing their portfolios?

 

[wozz]

I will go 100% with that statement too.!! Why is he banging on about NVQ, for guys that have been going for years. lol

from previous post:

If you want a jib card get one if you cant get one maybe try to reason with them if you have other supporting evidence, something which i have heard they are fine with.

 

[ipf]

it isnt coming back mate its a shame but there we go, i will take your word for it they all completed it, was it a purely academic course?

The point is why slag off what we have now? Do you honestly think the industry is better without some evidence of actual work included in a apprenticeship?

if so expect 'apprentices' to work in local supermarkets while not at college.

Many NVQers, so many who qualified in the last 30 years didnt complete apprenticeships? ok. Who was signing their portfolios?

This all came about with your comment regarding 'modernising your qualifications'. The point is how much superior qualifications were, prior to nvq's. All that is required for those holding such quals is an upgrade to present Edition, not nvq3.

 

[7029 dave]

from previous post:

If you want a jib card get one if you cant get one maybe try to reason with them if you have other supporting evidence, something which i have heard they are fine with.

Ha Ha, no don't need one thank you, not at this stage in my life, but let me tell you, I took up the C&G 2361 in 1980, one day a week at college (some guys done block) it was theory, very good practical work shop, MICC (dropped now shame),all the general domestic stuff, conduit, inspection and testing was covered (year 2 or 3 can't remember) in those days. All students were in full time employment with electrical company's, some with one man bands to big outfits the likes of Hayden young, Grand Met, Wimpey, the list goes on, apprentership's that was your evidence, being mentored on site and college. Times have changed, my point is NVQ's are not much use to the older generation. It would be deskilling IMO. No MICC for starters. lol

 

[UNG]

So in the 80s and before you had 6 month fast track teaching? sound like the Electrical Trainee isnt a new thing then.

The government had Skillcentre's the product of which got a similar reaction to the Electrical Trainee's of today

I didnt hang around with mine and it took far longer than 6 months, and was apart of a 4 year apprenticeship. Didnt cost me a penny was apart of my apprenticeship as was the AM2 so no money extraction there.

As i was doing a apprenticeship would you say i didnt need to do the nvq? You seem in favour of getting rid of it as its not needed but then go on to say to its too easy to fake.

Your employer had to cough up the money for your AM2 which I assume you passed. You don't mention what C&G quals you got so this could be your problem

So which is it? a nvq where you provide evidence or a system where you provide none? Do you have a better idea than the nvq? shall we have a new system? however then i can use all your arguements for me not to have to do it. Shall we have a closer montiored system thats costs loads more, hmm cant see that helping the industry, or shall we support the system we have which can serve a purpose but it often knocked by those without it, or those who done a previous incarnation over 34 years ago and will carry on as they dont think its as good?

As said earlier the evidence was in a CITB logbook which logged the 4 / 5 years on the job training as you did your apprenticeship signed off by the spark you worked with and reviewed by a CITB training officer a little better than a few meaningless photos and a little bit of a write up over a few months that now appears to be for sale on the net

Im sure some people have fabricated parts of theirs i know i wouldnt have got away with it with the eagle eye tutors we had, and the company i worked for definitely wouldnt have let me get away with it.

The NVQ is what separates me and others for the last 34 years from the Electrical Trainee and yet the older members want to knock it i just dont not get it.

In most cases the college tutors never see it as the assessors tend to work away from the colleges doing on site checks

How does it separate you from the Electrical Trainee they are getting NVQ 3's as well it is so easy

Yeah, compared to that C cert what's an NVQ worth. This wozz fella keeps going on about the value of it but, with previous quals and keeping up with 17th and Test and Insp, what is it worth....sfa.

Diddly squat

Wozz is trying to justify the NVQ's existance as if he is trying to sell for a training company and some of the replies don't ring true

The C course doesnt exist, and there is no replacement for it. times have changed for the worse in that respect.

So you are promoting academic only qualifications with no real life experience? is that how you want to trade progress? You want no new electricians to have something to separate them from Electrical Trainee? if so the colleges may as well shut and leave it to the training providers?

The "C" course was dropped because the pass rate dropped so low that it did not make it viable to carry on with it

This has gone rather off topic.

If you want a jib card get one if you cant get one maybe try to reason with them if you have other supporting evidence, something which i have heard they are fine with.

If you cant get one dont slag them off for sticking to their guns and bucking the downward spiral in this industry.

If you have a apprentice try to understand that they are trying to achieve before telling them its a waste of time.

If you do slag the JIB off for wanting a JIB card as a way of proving work experience , ask yourself where the industry is going without it, i think its only one place.

Im not a crusader for the jib, or the nvq both have their problems but i am yet to hear about a better system, and a new system isnt the answer it seems as change every 30 years is still too often!

The JIB has drifted from it's original objective because a lot of the employers no longer sign up and abide by the rules

Looking at the grading definitions these look to have changed as when I've looked at them in the past I would have needed an NVQ but this does not appear to be the case now with the qualifications I have

I will go 100% with that statement too.!! Why is he banging on about NVQ, for guys that have been going for years. lol

I think he's on a sales commission

it isnt coming back mate its a shame but there we go, i will take your word for it they all completed it, was it a purely academic course?

The point is why slag off what we have now? Do you honestly think the industry is better without some evidence of actual work included in a apprenticeship?

if so expect 'apprentices' to work in local supermarkets while not at college.

Many NVQers, so many who qualified in the last 30 years didnt complete apprenticeships? ok. Who was signing their portfolios?

The "C" course wont come back as a lot of it's content has been put into other courses the fact that you make no mention of any academic quals you hold makes me suspicious as has been said many time on here the apprenticeship had a mix of day or block realease for the academic quals coupled with the on the job training the rest of the time at work

I don't believe that the NVQ is a true reflection of assessing on the job training now at it's inception I seem to recall this was done over a much longer period

 

[wozz]

Ha Ha, no don't need one thank you, not at this stage in my life, but let me tell you, I took up the C&G 2361 in 1980, one day a week at college (some guys done block) it was theory, very good practical work shop, MICC (dropped now shame),all the general domestic stuff, conduit, inspection and testing was covered (year 2 or 3 can't remember) in those days. All students were in full time employment with electrical company's, some with one man bands to big outfits the likes of Hayden young, Grand Met, Wimpey, the list goes on, apprentership's that was your evidence, being mentored on site and college. Times have changed, my point is NVQ's are not much use to the older generation. It would be deskilling IMO. No MICC for starters. lol

Sounds exactly the same as my experience at college and i done 2360.

Your last line shows you dont really understand what a NVQ portfolio is, if you do MICC in your daily work of course it will go in your portfolio.

 

[wozz]

No need to get personal UNG, im not on commission and im not trying to sell something, clearly my debating is not welcome here.

I will let you boys get on with it, blindly saying your education is best and the rest is crap fine with me.

 

[dazza1981]

I can't be arsed to read this whole thread but what I will say is I had to do a full 5 year's on the tools and start right from the bottom and do the whole college route and NVQ3 to get my jib gold card and it was a long old slog so im bloody proud to have earnt my card even if people do think there a load of crap !!

 

[UNG]

No need to get personal UNG, im not on commission and im not trying to sell something, clearly my debating is not welcome here.

I will let you boys get on with it, blindly saying your education is best and the rest is crap fine with me.

You are not putting a good case forward for an NVQ 3 and your posts seem orientated to selling and have a get an NVQ 3 or get out of the trade attitude sorry if you feel it's personal I assure you it isn't just saying how I see it

Anyway the new kid on the block will be along soon, the QCF and no doubt it will all be debated again as to how good the NVQ was or wasn't

 

[UNG]

I can't be arsed to read this whole thread but what I will say is I had to do a full 5 year's on the tools and start right from the bottom and do the whole college route and NVQ3 to get my jib gold card and it was a long old slog so im bloody proud to have earnt my card even if people do think there a load of crap !!

Good on you sounds like your NVQ3 was part of your course and on the job training not some half baked pay us a bundle of money assessment of sparks with a good number of years experience

 

[dazza1981]

But there are guys on site who are the real old skool and have forgotten more than i am likely to ever know and they dont have an NVQ...... and to be honest it would be a **** take asking them to do it as they are the bees knees at what they do and would be an insult to them !!!
I dont know how hard it was to qualify back in the day and perhaps it was harder back then but i certainly did not find it a walk in the park to get my card thats for sure !!!

 

[edexlab]

No Nvq so I don't have one

I understand the requirement for a baseline but I think the Nvq system is massively abused
Every apprentice (bar one) I've been near has blagged the majority of the site diary running round taking photos in their hivizband all the gear , of themselves posing with a screwdriver in hand pretending to terminate something in a job they're not doing and had never done!

Several I know are self employed now, gold card holders and trust me you wouldn't want to see the standard of these lad's work Iet alone touch it!

Having said this I do know a few lads who were brilliant and will carry on to be excellent electricians and I feel sorry for them being classed in the same category apprenticeships are not what they were, with the majority of firms!

 

[shanky887614]

No Nvq so I don't have one

I understand the requirement for a baseline but I think the Nvq system is massively abused
Every apprentice (bar one) I've been near has blagged the majority of the site diary running round taking photos in their hivizband all the gear , of themselves posing with a screwdriver in hand pretending to terminate something in a job they're not doing and had never done!

Several I know are self employed now, gold card holders and trust me you wouldn't want to see the standard of these lad's work Iet alone touch it!

Having said this I do know a few lads who were brilliant and will carry on to be excellent electricians and I feel sorry for them being classed in the same category apprenticeships are not what they were, with the majority of firms!

thats true, I heard of a couple lads that took some pyro apart and took pics at each stage to make it look like they did it.

not me all my pics are of stuff I did, I got some pyro for myself to put in portfolio,

 

[7029 dave]

Sounds exactly the same as my experience at college and i done 2360.

Your last line shows you dont really understand what a NVQ portfolio is, if you do MICC in your daily work of course it will go in your portfolio.

But MICC is not taught anymore is it?, that's my point.!!! Watered down training. I do know a little on NVQ portfolio, any mug can photograph saying they done this an that, don't mean they done it. lol

 

[7029 dave]

Oh and if you did do the 236, as you know course work was marked (practical) over the years if the pass mark was not met. = FAIL

 

[Andy78]

But MICC is not taught anymore is it?, that's my point.!!! Watered down training. I do know a little on NVQ portfolio, any mug can photograph saying they done this an that, don't mean they done it. lol

MICC may or may not be taught now, I'm not entirely sure. I know it has been dropped from the AM2 for definite. The cable is specced and used less and less these days though mainly for cost related issues, so I can understand it's lack of relevance now. I agree it should still be taught as an important skill though.

My NVQ folder was strictly vetted. Every photo taken and task performed had to be countersigned by my supervising electrician or QS. I had numerous site visits where my on site assessor had to witness me performing tasks first hand. These visits covered every skill group and type of task required by the logbook. Most of the photos used as evidence had to be witnessed on these site visits to prove that I was the one performing the work. The only way you could blag your logbook was to have a corrupt site assessor.
Maybe this was because I did my NVQ with a decent college with high standards, but I can vouch for the NVQ logbook as a valid record of practical training.

 

[R G]

But MICC is not taught anymore is it?, that's my point.!!! Watered down training. I do know a little on NVQ portfolio, any mug can photograph saying they done this an that, don't mean they done it. lol

i didnt know this was happening about photos and portfolios etc ,this is amazing to think your whole training can be based on what you learn in a classroom and some photos .
This has stunned me , to think of all the on site training over a number of years and that you had to satisfy tradesmen and the company that you were competent and could do any of the work to a good standard , and be signed off I honestly didn't know this is what is happening , so I can now see why the industry is on its knees with guys coming on here asking for experience , but more surprising is that they have attained the qualifications without any training .
I am honestly happy to have attained what I have and when I got it . Feel sorry for lads that want to do the right thing but have to follow this syllabus with the dam equals as a Electrical Trainee

 

[bluestar]

I am in favour of the jib card but the people on the desk must read from a script!!
I was first told I couldn't have an approved card I applied for mine late in life as I didn`t have an nvq 3 !!!
also told her nvq did not exist in my day !!still would not budge
gave her my qualifications 236 1 and 2, 232 pt 3 ,am 1 and 2 onc. and 2391 which they took as my nvq 3 and gave me install and maintenance on my card
had a friend who applied for an upgrade to approved status with reference from firm and sent off pat test certificate with it and got technician status
so sees to me sometimes no rhyme or reason to them

 

[7029 dave]

Yes, Ray this is the way in the 21st century, it bloody upsets me.!!!

 

[bluestar]

i didnt know this was happening about photos and portfolios etc ,this is amazing to think your whole training can be based on what you learn in a classroom and some photos .
This has stunned me , to think of all the on site training over a number of years and that you had to satisfy tradesmen and the company that you were competent and could do any of the work to a good standard , and be signed off I honestly didn't know this is what is happening , so I can now see why the industry is on its knees with guys coming on here asking for experience , but more surprising is that they have attained the qualifications without any training .
I am honestly happy to have attained what I have and when I got it . Feel sorry for lads that want to do the right thing but have to follow this syllabus with the dam equals as a Electrical Trainee

to be fair I have had 2 apprentices whilst working as a subbie (both my sons) who done the modern apprentice route and they both can stand there own now with any spark, both adept In
commercial industrial and domestic and I would not have let them cut corners or not do what was required of them I taught them from day 1 a good foreman can spot a chancer by dinner time
so learn to do the basics well and you will always get a start

 

[R G]

Yes, Ray this is the way in the 21st century, it bloody upsets me.!!!

And I can see why everybody feels the way they do about it , when I think of myself and the lads I have had with me and the hard work they had to do . It's wrong and The Jib system should show the differences between them with either a different type of card or shown on the card and should show the on job training signed of by a qualified sparks can't see that quals alone are any good any more to get a jib graded card TMO anyway