Wi fi/ internet upgrade

[brianmoooore]

Need to upgrade the wi fi/internet stuff at my place. I thought that there was a dedicated forum for this kind of stuff, but it seems I'm mistaken, so I'll stick it in the general forum, where I hope it'll be seen (or ridiculed) by some of our more knowledgeable members on the subject.
The pic attached shows what I already have in black, and my ideas for the additions in orange.
Originally a router in the loft was fed by a microwave link, but that was replaced a few years ago by a BT fibre optic cable, optical interface, and a standard BT wi fi router.
Initial questions:
a) The 41m length of data cable , between the old and the new, goes outdoors, so will be polypropylene.
It includes an 8m overhead section between two buildings. Do you think that this will be OK self supporting, with BT type steel wire spiral things wound onto each end for anchorage, or should it be cable tied to a catenary wire?
b) Any suggestions for the three ceiling mounted wifi routers? Don't need to be anything special - just for normal domestic phone stuff and smart TVs, and can all have the same password, sharing it with the existing external router.
c) Network switch C is close to a power source, so is there a type that can supply POE to the three routers? Power isn't immediately handy to network switch B, so can that be replaced and powered by POE from switch C?
d) That brings me to the 3 cameras I would like to add, where my knowledge is even more sparse. These will all be external cameras, with IR illuminators.
Do the two on the right just plug into the network switch, or is it more complicated than that?
Similarly, does the one outside the loft just plug into network switch A, via a POE injector?
The recorder and monitor will be near one of the two hard wired TVs. Will the camera signals find their way there, and how do they connect into the shared cable?

That'll d for a start, until someone tells me it'll all work as described or I haven't got a clue. Thanks in advance.

 

[PS Electrics]

Need to upgrade the wi fi/internet stuff at my place. I thought that there was a dedicated forum for this kind of stuff, but it seems I'm mistaken, so I'll stick it in the general forum, where I hope it'll be seen (or ridiculed) by some of our more knowledgeable members on the subject.
The pic attached shows what I already have in black, and my ideas for the additions in orange.
Originally a router in the loft was fed by a microwave link, but that was replaced a few years ago by a BT fibre optic cable, optical interface, and a standard BT wi fi router.
Initial questions:
a) The 41m length of data cable , between the old and the new, goes outdoors, so will be polypropylene.
It includes an 8m overhead section between two buildings. Do you think that this will be OK self supporting, with BT type steel wire spiral things wound onto each end for anchorage, or should it be cable tied to a catenary wire?
b) Any suggestions for the three ceiling mounted wifi routers? Don't need to be anything special - just for normal domestic phone stuff and smart TVs, and can all have the same password, sharing it with the existing external router.
c) Network switch C is close to a power source, so is there a type that can supply POE to the three routers?

Power isn't immediately handy to network switch B, so can that be replaced and powered by POE from switch C?

No but it can be powered from an upstream switch though so that would be Switch A Switch B would need to be a POE pass through switch.

d) That brings me to the 3 cameras I would like to add, where my knowledge is even more sparse. These will all be external cameras, with IR illuminators.
Do the two on the right just plug into the network switch, or is it more complicated than that?
Similarly, does the one outside the loft just plug into network switch A, via a POE injector?
The recorder and monitor will be near one of the two hard wired TVs. Will the camera signals find their way there, and how do they connect into the shared cable?

That'll d for a start, until someone tells me it'll all work as described or I haven't got a clue. Thanks in advance.

View attachment 118305

Best not to daisy chain switches, you don't state the bandwidth of the switches you have but what I would recommend is you buy a new backbone switch for switch A, switch B and switch C should then connect to Switch A.

 

[James]

Post in thread 'Good Morning Thread - Come say good morning, tell us what you've got on today. '
Good Morning Thread - Come say good morning, tell us what you've got on today. :) | Page 74 | on ElectriciansForums - https://www.electriciansforums.net/threads/good-morning-thread-come-say-good-morning-tell-us-what-youve-got-on-today.180069/post-1869461

Have a look at this thread, everything I listed is relevant to you.

 

[plugsandsparks]

Apart from the BT supplied router, are all the other routers just wifi access points ?

Also what does DC mean on the drawing.

Happy to share stuff i have used that would do the job, save you having the pain of whats what

 

[brianmoooore]

Apart from the BT supplied router, are all the other routers just wifi access points ?

Also what does DC mean on the drawing.

Happy to share stuff i have used that would do the job, save you having the pain of whats what

I'm afraid I have an almost total mental block when it comes to tech stuff. The routers, apart from the BT one, are just wi fi transmitters and receivers - is that what's meant by access point? No equipment will need to be connected to them by cable.
'DC' on the drawing refers to DC power feeds from adjacent PSUs.
If you could recommend actual makes and models of bits that I need, preferably stuff that isn't too expensive and is easy to set up, I would be more than grateful.

 

[brianmoooore]

No but it can be powered from an upstream switch though so that would be Switch A Switch B would need to be a POE pass through switch.



Best not to daisy chain switches, you don't state the bandwidth of the switches you have but what I would recommend is you buy a new backbone switch for switch A, switch B and switch C should then connect to Switch A.

Switch A can rearranged so that it feeds the TVs and the existing internal router, so switch B can then be plugged straight into one of the BT router LAN sockets, but switch C will still need to be daisy chained through B, since there's no way the 41m orange cable can be routed back to the bunch of stuff in the loft.
A POE injector and PSU could be fitted in the loft to power B. There's power available at C, so it doesn't really need to feed POE onto C.

 

[brianmoooore]

Post in thread 'Good Morning Thread - Come say good morning, tell us what you've got on today. '
Good Morning Thread - Come say good morning, tell us what you've got on today. :) | Page 74 | on ElectriciansForums - https://www.electriciansforums.net/threads/good-morning-thread-come-say-good-morning-tell-us-what-youve-got-on-today.180069/post-1869461

Have a look at this thread, everything I listed is relevant to you.

This is the thread that inspired me to start looking at this upgrade. The U6 is the type of thing I'm thinking of, but I really don't need anything that sophisticated or expensive. They're just for holiday cottage guests to use their phones, tablets and smart TVs.
No doubt the dream machine pro is an excellent bit of kit, but again, far more sophisticated than I need, and I'd never be able to set it up.

 

[PS Electrics]

Switch A can rearranged so that it feeds the TVs and the existing internal router, so switch B can then be plugged straight into one of the BT router LAN sockets, but switch C will still need to be daisy chained through B, since there's no way the 41m orange cable can be routed back to the bunch of stuff in the loft.

I figured that might be the case. The reason I suggested it was of course if you lose Switch B you lose Switch C as well and performance wise it would be better.

 

[plugsandsparks]

NETGEAR GS108LP ProSAFE FlexPoE Unmanaged PoE+ 8 Port Gigabit Switch

NETGEAR GS108LP ProSAFE FlexPoE 8-Port Unmanaged Gigabit PoE+ Switch (60W) - Available at Comms Express, Networking Reseller - Free Next Day Delivery

www.comms-express.com

Replace switch A with above. Plug one cable from BT router into it and all other connections go to this switch.
If the POE camera can reach the loft, plug that into this new switch

Replace SWitch C with same product as above:
Use these for Wireless access

Ubiquiti UAP-AC-PRO UniFi UAP AC Pro Access Point | Comms Express

Ubiquiti UniFi AP AC Pro Indoor / Outdoor Access Point (UAP-AC-PRO) - Available at Comms Express, Networking Reseller - Free Delivery Available Buy Online Today

www.comms-express.com

Plug all access points and cameras into it.

If switch B is working and the wifi, then perhaps leave alone, otherwise below is a POE switch which can be powered by the ubiquiti P++ injector connected to switch C

Ubiquiti USW-FLEX 5-Port PoE Gigabit Switch for Indoor/Outdoor Use | Comms Express

Ubiquiti USW-Flex UniFi 5-Port Layer 2 Managed Desktop Gigabit PoE Switch (46W) - Available at Comms Express, Networking Reseller - Free Next Day Delivery

www.comms-express.com

104M could be a stretch for the access point off switch B, if so use a local injector to power it.

There are other ways of doing all this but this is the most straight forward solution using low cost components, i can think of.

Main thing to look out for is the POE power budget, there is a limit per port and an overall switch power budget, so you need to add up the cameras, PTZs use more than simple fixed cameras

Only product i have not used is the POE powered switch, as its a Ubiquiti product, along with the Wifi access points i would set them all up on the bench over a coffee as Ubiquiti uses an app to configure the access points and switches. Its reasonably straightforward as you create a project them all access points can be configured with the same config.

 

[Simon47]

Netgear do some switches that can be PoE powered, and provide limited PoE downstream ("proper" 802.11af, not just passthrough), and I think I've seen others that do this as well. The switch supplying the power does need to be PoE+ to allow for the higher power draw.
You can feed PoE either way. I.e. you CAN power switch B from switch C - you use the PoE IN port on switch B connected to a PoE OUT port on switch C. Here in and out refer only to power direction, with gigabit ethernet there is no in or out, upstream or downstream.
I used to fit Ubiquiti APs in a previous job - good kit for the price.

Most IP cameras can be fed via PoE these days - but as said, look at the specs for power draw. Again, with a previous job we had a client we did support for, who had a place in South Africa he went to during our winter (no, never got asked to go out to do any work ). He had some PoE cameras which stopped working at night. With the IR illumination built in, it exceeded the PoE power limit (still 14.4W back then) and stopped the camera working. I always wondered why the manufacturer sold a camera that couldn't work properly !
So you need to look at the specs for each device and check that you don't exceed the power limit either per port (14.4W for the original 802.11af PoE), higher for PoE+ (803.11at), and IIRC there's a newer higher power spec still but TBH I've not really been following properly; or overall for the switch (until you get to "high end" devices at "high end" prices, you generally can't load every port to full power). Fortunately. many devices take a lot less than the maximum.

 

[brianmoooore]

I've spent what spare time I could find all week trying to get my head around all the suggestions made so far and trying to understand the specs of the suggested bits. Thanks very much.
So, if I fit a Netgear GS108LP as switch C on my diagram and a Ubiquiti USW-Flex5 as switch B, then B will be fed with power from C, and not need a local PSU ? This will be ideal, since B is in a dusty and often damp environment and the IP55 rating will solve a problem there.
One thing that isn't immediately obvious (to me, at least) is does the Netgear switch have a built in PSU, or does it need an external, additional one?
Small confession now. The existing set up, in black on the LH side, has never actually been as shown. The 104m cable from B is almost entirely in an underground duct and the 40m cable from B went directly to the BT modem in the loft, not through switch A. All this worked fine with a totally adequate signal at the end of the 104m cable.
At this time, the two wired feeds to the TV did not exist, with the TVs working happily for most of the time, until there was a particularly unfortunate three lap drop out, three laps from the end of a particularly close F1 race earlier this year.
There was building work going on at the time, so, with most of the required cable routes already already accessible, I took the opportunity to instal the cables. The wifi at the end of the 104m cable hasn't been required this year, so the switch at B was 'borrowed' and transferred to position A. There's nothing at B at the moment, except two RJ45 plugs, so two new switches are required, whatever.
Next question: Parts of the new 41m and 40m cables are going to be outdoors, so PE cable is needed for that. I have next to no PVC Cat5E cable left, and will have to buy a new 305m reel of PE, so is there any reason why the whole of the orange cabling shouldn't be in PE? E2Go has unbranded Cat5E PE at £82 + VAT for 305m and Cat6 PE at £114 + VAT. Is there any advantage in using Cat6 over Cat5E for ny application?
Plugsandsparks suggests Ubiquiti UAP-AC Pro access points, and while I've no doubt that these are excellent devices, I suspect that they deliver much more than I need, and at a price that reflects this. I see that Ubiquiti also list the Unifi AP-AC Lite at a much affordable £68 + VAT, but unfortunately they don't appear to be in stock anywhere.
Can anyone explain, in layman's terms, what the difference is between these, and perhaps suggest a lower priced POE ceiling mounted access point. I've found the TP-Link Omada EAP110 that, apart from appearing to be an odd looking object, I assume does the job at £33 + VAT.
No one has commented on the 8m overhead suspended section of cable. My own feeling is that the construction of Cat5E PE is fairly similar to the 3 pair PE cable used by Openreach/BT for old copper connections, and they are suspended for spans of many times my 8m, so should be OK.

 

[Avo Mk8]

One thing that isn't immediately obvious (to me, at least) is does the Netgear switch have a built in PSU, or does it need an external, additional one?

The only contribution I can make is to say the Netgear switch does have an external (54V) power supply brick, available in 3 increasing power ratings of 67, 90, 130 watts. I believe you get the lowest power one by default included with the switch.

 

[brianmoooore]

54 volts! Didn't realize that POE voltage was as high as this.

 

[Avo Mk8]

54 volts! Didn't realize that POE voltage was as high as this.

Neither did I. 44 to 57V according to IEEE 802.3af apparently.
It's "active PoE" and the supplying unit handshakes with the receiving unit requiring power to check it's compatible before applying power. A bit like USB-C power delivery I suppose.