- Reaction score
- 2,810
Few more pics
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Please checkout the new poll we will be pushing hard, and want some good stories to come out of this
result are public - you can change your vote over time, which might genuinely be the case from time to time.
Search the forum,
Few more pics
We once lost out on a 60 grand glasshouse job because we were to dear. I went there later to do some maintenance. The whole job was done in SY as apposed to our SWA job.
Anyway got paid lots of money for putting loads of it right. Ended up costing them more in the long run!
S
Looks like it's in a commercial kitchen so what do u expect?
Yeah, Gordon Ramsey's. lol
Don't remember seeing them in BS7671.
K
S
S
D
Bit of tray would have looked better especially underneath the panel as I think the sweep on the right hand SWA's could be better.
K
Only thing I’ll say is you can get capping for unistrut, I’ve no problem with cable run through strut.
In the foundry at times it was about the only thing you could do to protect a cable.
You lot moan about cables run though insulation, I’d put the cable in the strut and then fill it with Ganister mineral refractory or Kerlain fibre.
B
G
S
K
Will do, let you know the outcome of it all
Nice one!
I like working with those new hager DB's
D
D
Why is the board not covering the hole in the wall?
B
R
B
D
D
Yeah the boards up the wrong way mate.... just kidding good work mate and very neat indeed.
Did it take you 3 weeks to do though??? well done
W
Are you staying this because there appears to be no identification on the neutral and earth bars or are you saying all terminations should have?
D
It does look a little wonky now you mention it, thought the spirit level was out
haha
Cheers, surprisingly it only took 30mins. Would be neater if i could have had more time, but building sites are a nightmare.
Regardless of whether terminals are physically marked up or not the cables requires suitable sleeve markers or tape markers because it isn't easy to identify which E and N belong to which L - if you can clearly follow the cable to where has been split from the outer sheath on say a T&E then you don't need to identify the core but in the Pic above the entry point is going to be hidden by the gear tray thus he is required to identify all cores... same if you were coming into a board in singles.
He will find out how rough his firm is if he asks his boss for ID sleeves and he says not to bother.
514-1-2.
You tend to find house bashes never bother putting on core Ident's and often not required as its just a simple visual task to see which T&E the belong to but when you cant follow it back you require to ID the cable cores for the purposes of maintenance, testing and alteration.
W
D
Its mainly used industrial and commercial but the regs do apply the same to domestic - its regardless of the terminals been numbered the Earth should be easily identifiable to it corresponding L an N when not in its terminations - pulling boards apart to ID this goes beyond the meaning of the regulation ... its one of those regs often overlooked in the domestic realm but it still is applicable. You can usually figure if its required by removing all the wires from their terminations and if you cannot easily and visually see which cores belong together then you need to mark them.
Yes i might sound like the regulation police a bit and going a bit overboard but just expressing the requirement and not saying its always necessary but try ignoring this on the bigger sites you'll soon find out how keen the Clark of jerks can be if not your scheme provider.
W
I do get your drift and not totally against your thinking but as you may realise Im very conservative regarding regs and although I don't really bother with domestic I would in the OP case Number the cores up - the installer here has the benefit of knowing his work he's installed and thus may be complacent as to bother with marking up if say following the cores back would require stripping down of the board. Consider the installer did all his work and accidentally mixed N up in the N block ... all following Electricians now are set with the possibility of dropping out a N from an opposing circuit by accident and although he may have safely isolated the board he may subject an insulation test to a circuit that has sensitive equipment on it thinking he testing to another cable core...
To this day i still see registered Electricians confusing the order of the N and E block and in some cases just not bothering to try and unless you can follow them back to confirm then you have the real possibility of having to disconnect all the cables and lift the main busbar carriage out while the live tails still connected, can you seriously tell me you have never come across a old wylex etc where the cables were either singles or so jammed up it took unnecessary time sorting it out just to start testing... and you say its really not for the domestic realm.
If you cannot as ive commented before simply follow cable cores to their original cable for identifying the corresponding cores then you will be subject to the regulation regardless of the nature of the building, If you take step to make it easy to ID cable then no problem you could even run a trunking above the DB and strip all the cores back into the trunking as it gives easy access to visually follow with nothing more than maybe a cable wiggle.
You shouldn't soften your approach to the regs just because your in domestic it applies just as strong as it does in a 36way 3phase panel.... Considering that these big panels often provide the necessary room to make cables easy to follow its the case that a 15way DB in a house may be subject to this regulation more so than the industrial set up... all though i mark all mine as the mark of professionalism and pride in my work.
No need to number these according to the Regs but it adds that extra bit of professionalism, as well as picking a board to match the paint work..
W
Discuss **Show Us Your Installs!!!** in the Australia area at ElectriciansForums.net
Few more pics
- Reaction score
- 2,810
Nope, full sized wagon
darwood said:
We once lost out on a 60 grand glasshouse job because we were to dear. I went there later to do some maintenance. The whole job was done in SY as apposed to our SWA job.
Anyway got paid lots of money for putting loads of it right. Ended up costing them more in the long run!
OP
Silly Sausage
- Reaction score
- 2,810
Looks like it's in a commercial kitchen so what do u expect?
- Reaction score
- 3,937
Yeah, Gordon Ramsey's. lol
- Reaction score
- 1,345
Don't remember seeing them in BS7671.
OP
Knobhead
Goood to see YOUR installs are improving Archy
OP
specs
Always good to see clear and specific labelling.
- Reaction score
- 6,965
View attachment 22890One job a couple of years back....New unit...100A 3ph incommer had to be upgraded to 400. You can see the original supply in the far corner.
The only problem I have is that, for some reason, the insert image won't work, except on rare occasions it seems, so can't put any other bleedin' photos up.
The only problem I have is that, for some reason, the insert image won't work, except on rare occasions it seems, so can't put any other bleedin' photos up.
OP
Sarz11
This thread is really good i cant input but its interesting anyway :0)
OP
dazza1981
Bit of tray would have looked better especially underneath the panel as I think the sweep on the right hand SWA's could be better.
OP
Knobhead
Only thing I’ll say is you can get capping for unistrut, I’ve no problem with cable run through strut.
In the foundry at times it was about the only thing you could do to protect a cable.
You lot moan about cables run though insulation, I’d put the cable in the strut and then fill it with Ganister mineral refractory or Kerlain fibre.
OP
Badged01
Finished off an EICR today and final checks on the cooker showed no R1+R2 at the cooker switch. A quick blast of IR between 'wires' gave all less than 150MΩ. Far from ideal but it's well above the 1MΩ in the regs and the 2MΩ recommended for further investigation. So on we go to try and discover what's happening with the CPC.
Undo the cooker switch outlet and all looks fine inside (less the grommet) but a quick tug on the CPC leaves a 6" strand of green'n'yellow in my hand --- 3" to you and me but I always like to exaggerate on lengths so the wife thinks she's getting more than she is.
The old girl is now panicking about getting an electric shock off the cooker so I investigate further to put her mind at rest!. Off comes the tile, plaster etc. and after a little bit of digging low and behold what do I find ........
Guess sometime about 10yrs ago when the kitchen fitters re-did her kitchen, they partially cut through the wires and just tiled back over! Goes to show that recommended IR readings are not that indicative of a healthy circuit as if the R1+R2 had passed OK, I probably wouldn't have looked any further. And even with the partially severed wires (red had 2 or 3 out of the 7 strands still intact) she had been using her cooker regularly at full blast for the family Sunday roast for years! All I can think is that the 3 strands equated to circa 3mm and the cooker was 13A equivalent so it could handle it.
Undo the cooker switch outlet and all looks fine inside (less the grommet) but a quick tug on the CPC leaves a 6" strand of green'n'yellow in my hand --- 3" to you and me but I always like to exaggerate on lengths so the wife thinks she's getting more than she is.
The old girl is now panicking about getting an electric shock off the cooker so I investigate further to put her mind at rest!. Off comes the tile, plaster etc. and after a little bit of digging low and behold what do I find ........
Guess sometime about 10yrs ago when the kitchen fitters re-did her kitchen, they partially cut through the wires and just tiled back over! Goes to show that recommended IR readings are not that indicative of a healthy circuit as if the R1+R2 had passed OK, I probably wouldn't have looked any further. And even with the partially severed wires (red had 2 or 3 out of the 7 strands still intact) she had been using her cooker regularly at full blast for the family Sunday roast for years! All I can think is that the 3 strands equated to circa 3mm and the cooker was 13A equivalent so it could handle it.
- Reaction score
- 10,215
Buried deep in plaster and brick work the worse that would have happened is the cable overheated in a safe contained environment and either cut its own throat or shorted out which is when it would have been looked into.
Recommended IR readings are their to indicated a breakdown of the insulation barriers between conductors as well as down to earth... if the readings are well within permitted values it is usually an indication that the public are not at risk of shock due to a breakdown of insulation barrier (the dry building material served as a good barrier in your case) although its clear occasions exist when this isn't true as without a conductive contaminant 2 bare wire mm apart with give good IR.
If the earth was broken prior to it been pulled out then this would have been found and identified with a correct sequence of tests - assuming the cooker was fully disconnected during the R1 + R2 tests then a parallel earth path through the gas pipe wouldn't give a false positive.
We have to Note here badge that the full sequence of tests are our best way to find faulty or dangerous circuits but can't always identify every possible combinations of situations, their are many tests we can't do and as matter of assumption we just carry on in the blind believe that that MCB will operate at the correct time-curve when overloaded or will trip instantaneously when the S/C value is high enough... we only really check rcd's for their earth leakage reaction and functionality so here we have another void of assumption that our test sequences don't confirm.
At least with rewirable fuses or cartridge fuses as long as the wire fitted was made to spec it would always operate at a predictable and measured value and also left traits of the cause of the wire fusing.
Recommended IR readings are their to indicated a breakdown of the insulation barriers between conductors as well as down to earth... if the readings are well within permitted values it is usually an indication that the public are not at risk of shock due to a breakdown of insulation barrier (the dry building material served as a good barrier in your case) although its clear occasions exist when this isn't true as without a conductive contaminant 2 bare wire mm apart with give good IR.
If the earth was broken prior to it been pulled out then this would have been found and identified with a correct sequence of tests - assuming the cooker was fully disconnected during the R1 + R2 tests then a parallel earth path through the gas pipe wouldn't give a false positive.
We have to Note here badge that the full sequence of tests are our best way to find faulty or dangerous circuits but can't always identify every possible combinations of situations, their are many tests we can't do and as matter of assumption we just carry on in the blind believe that that MCB will operate at the correct time-curve when overloaded or will trip instantaneously when the S/C value is high enough... we only really check rcd's for their earth leakage reaction and functionality so here we have another void of assumption that our test sequences don't confirm.
At least with rewirable fuses or cartridge fuses as long as the wire fitted was made to spec it would always operate at a predictable and measured value and also left traits of the cause of the wire fusing.
- Reaction score
- 356
Found this beauty today......
25mm/100amp supply in top ---> out bottom --> 4 x 10mm tails to 2x BS3036 cu's + 1 x4mm link to 20aMCB !
Really starting to pee me off now, this is the second job I've come across within a month in a similar state by the same 'sparky' - Elesca registered - really tempted to report him.
25mm/100amp supply in top ---> out bottom --> 4 x 10mm tails to 2x BS3036 cu's + 1 x4mm link to 20aMCB !
Really starting to pee me off now, this is the second job I've come across within a month in a similar state by the same 'sparky' - Elesca registered - really tempted to report him.
OP
guest119
Aye, do it, you know its the right thing to do.
Its not joiner work its leccy!!
Boydy
Its not joiner work its leccy!!
Boydy
OP
Spearmint
Yeah I'd report him. Why should he walk away with payment for that "work" when that could've been YOU walking away after doing a proper job?
OP
Knobhead
Of more interest, keep us informed of what ELECSA do. Or don’t do as is more than likely.
- Reaction score
- 2,810
Had to put a new sub board into a restaurant kitchen and drop 11 new feeds into the kitchen for equipment. We only had 2 nights to do it and there was only really room for 2 of us.
- Reaction score
- 2,810
I wanted to try and get them all a bit flatter, the only problem being is where they come out of the wall just above the shot, because of stud work and noggins, it's a square hole that just fits the cables, so in the 4' of tray I diddnt really have the length to get them neater and flatter!
- Reaction score
- 2,810
No mate comments are always greatly received!
- Reaction score
- 356
Will do, let you know the outcome of it all
- Reaction score
- 251
Had to put a new sub board into a restaurant kitchen and drop 11 new feeds into the kitchen for equipment. We only had 2 nights to do it and there was only really room for 2 of us.
Nice one!
I like working with those new hager DB's
OP
daviesjoe
Hey,
Just started one today, would like feedback, see where i could improve.
"Don't be too harsh, im only an apprentice and this is my first time doing a new board complete"
Finishing it off tomorrow hopefully - when the breakers show up to site ....
Just started one today, would like feedback, see where i could improve.
"Don't be too harsh, im only an apprentice and this is my first time doing a new board complete
"Finishing it off tomorrow hopefully - when the breakers show up to site ....
OP
daviesjoe
Hey,
Just started one today, would like feedback, see where i could improve.
"Don't be too harsh, im only an apprentice and this is my first time doing a new board complete"
View attachment 24100
Finishing it off tomorrow hopefully - when the breakers show up to site ....
Just started one today, would like feedback, see where i could improve.
"Don't be too harsh, im only an apprentice and this is my first time doing a new board complete
"View attachment 24100
Finishing it off tomorrow hopefully - when the breakers show up to site ....
- Reaction score
- 5,940
So far so good for the cable dressing, not sure you will have enough room behind the busbar for those folded cpcs, remember to take the cable ties off once complete and tested.Hey,
Just started one today, would like feedback, see where i could improve.
"Don't be too harsh, I'm only an apprentice and this is my first time doing a new board complete
Finishing it off tomorrow hopefully - when the breakers show up to site ....
Why is the board not covering the hole in the wall?
- Reaction score
- 10,215
Hi daviesjoe .... my comments are thus :-
Remember grouping factors may have an influence if your going to bunch tiewrap as you have.
Once you have fitted the internals and OL devices your cable terminations will require identification due to your methods here, which N/E belong to which L are not easily visual identifiable as the internal busbar section with cover the entry point of most of the cables you can't rely on the actual no of the terminal you connect to you should in theory be able to drop all cables out and be able to easily identify which is which.
Welcome to the forum you are indeed a brave lad to show us your install on your first visit asking for our advice --good on yer!
Remember grouping factors may have an influence if your going to bunch tiewrap as you have.
Once you have fitted the internals and OL devices your cable terminations will require identification due to your methods here, which N/E belong to which L are not easily visual identifiable as the internal busbar section with cover the entry point of most of the cables you can't rely on the actual no of the terminal you connect to you should in theory be able to drop all cables out and be able to easily identify which is which.
Welcome to the forum you are indeed a brave lad to show us your install on your first visit asking for our advice --good on yer!
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OP
Badged01
I wanna know what that hidden henley block (or something else) is doing down at the botton left .... your not getting into bad habits already ...... :aureola:
OP
R G
Hi there and welcome , couple of criticisms , first the cutout in the back of the board is way too big, and the board does not cover the hole also the fire rating integrity with the hole behind the board requiring a barrier , other issue is the cable ties not allowing for future alterations especially those that will be behind the breakers , din rail and bus bar ,,,
Another thing you can do is to install numbered rings on each of the cores , most helpful in the future for anyone working on the board,,,
Another thing you can do is to install numbered rings on each of the cores , most helpful in the future for anyone working on the board,,,
OP
Badged01
I've devised my own fool proof method of identification -- well it tends to stop an old fool like me forgetting which cable goes where! Use a black marker pen (permanent) and just put a ring around each cable type there (1.5mm, 2.5mm, 6mm etc .....). 1 ring 1st circuit, 2 rings 2nd circuit, 3 rings third circuit --- just hope you dont have 20 socket circuits to do!
Or buy some of those nice looking numbered cable rings if your flush ......
Or buy some of those nice looking numbered cable rings if your flush ......
OP
daviesjoe
Thanks for you comments, the hole on the left (not a henley block) is just a back box for an alarm panel next to the board haha.
I will eventually remove the tie wraps and straighten all the neutrals out, at the minute i have marked them with a sharpie (little dashes on the conductor) to show where they belong. Ideally would have loved to have used proper identification, but im not supplying the materials ;(
Also the hole above the board wasn't there when i started haha, it fell out when i was stripping the cables back. Its a new build so a decorator is following me round.
I hope.
Hope to have a updated picture of it soon, cheers for advice!
I will eventually remove the tie wraps and straighten all the neutrals out, at the minute i have marked them with a sharpie (little dashes on the conductor) to show where they belong. Ideally would have loved to have used proper identification, but im not supplying the materials ;(
Also the hole above the board wasn't there when i started haha, it fell out when i was stripping the cables back. Its a new build so a decorator is following me round.
I hope.
Hope to have a updated picture of it soon, cheers for advice!
OP
dazza1981
Hey,
Just started one today, would like feedback, see where i could improve.
"Don't be too harsh, im only an apprentice and this is my first time doing a new board complete
View attachment 24100
Finishing it off tomorrow hopefully - when the breakers show up to site ....
Yeah the boards up the wrong way mate.... just kidding good work mate and very neat indeed.
Did it take you 3 weeks to do though??? well done
OP
wozz
Are you staying this because there appears to be no identification on the neutral and earth bars or are you saying all terminations should have?
OP
daviesjoe
It does look a little wonky now you mention it, thought the spirit level was out
hahaCheers, surprisingly it only took 30mins. Would be neater if i could have had more time, but building sites are a nightmare.
- Reaction score
- 10,215
Regardless of whether terminals are physically marked up or not the cables requires suitable sleeve markers or tape markers because it isn't easy to identify which E and N belong to which L - if you can clearly follow the cable to where has been split from the outer sheath on say a T&E then you don't need to identify the core but in the Pic above the entry point is going to be hidden by the gear tray thus he is required to identify all cores... same if you were coming into a board in singles.
He will find out how rough his firm is if he asks his boss for ID sleeves and he says not to bother.
514-1-2.
You tend to find house bashes never bother putting on core Ident's and often not required as its just a simple visual task to see which T&E the belong to but when you cant follow it back you require to ID the cable cores for the purposes of maintenance, testing and alteration.
OP
wozz
Whilst i agree with your thinking a minute in that board with a screwdriver and long nose pliers and i would be able to identify the conductors for one cable. Id say if the terminals are marked id say the OP has complied with 514.1.2, by its arrangement with corresponding terminals which are numbered. 514.1.2 doesnt say anything about must be able to identify all conductors of a cable just by looking.
As i say i agree with your thinking and workmanship standards i dont think 7671 is asking for cabling in the switchgear in this case to be marked.
As i say i agree with your thinking and workmanship standards i dont think 7671 is asking for cabling in the switchgear in this case to be marked.
OP
daviesjoe
I would put markers on the cables if i was going to leave them all cable tied together. In bigger 3-phase boards we tend to mark them, as its sometimes a field day trying to find corresponding N & E's.
- Reaction score
- 10,215
Its mainly used industrial and commercial but the regs do apply the same to domestic - its regardless of the terminals been numbered the Earth should be easily identifiable to it corresponding L an N when not in its terminations - pulling boards apart to ID this goes beyond the meaning of the regulation ... its one of those regs often overlooked in the domestic realm but it still is applicable. You can usually figure if its required by removing all the wires from their terminations and if you cannot easily and visually see which cores belong together then you need to mark them.
Yes i might sound like the regulation police a bit and going a bit overboard but just expressing the requirement and not saying its always necessary but try ignoring this on the bigger sites you'll soon find out how keen the Clark of jerks can be if not your scheme provider.
OP
wozz
We are talking about 7671 minimum compliance here if a clerk of works wants it i think that is more than 7671 is asking for and therefore would be in a spec somewhere. If we were talking about very large boards here I think you could have some argument but in a small domestic board i dont believe it is required. Yes the regs should be applied to all install but that doesnt mean blanket regs, if this was the intention 514.1.2 would be far more explicit in its wording. 'reasonably practicable' is used in the reg, as i said with the fuseboard in question one minute and i will be able to identify all conductors from a cable, sounds reasonable to me. On a huge three phase board which may have had the cabling not run sensibly like behind centeral bussbars for neatness this may be far far longer and may involve dismantling, we are now possibly into the realms of beyond 'reasonably practicable' but even that is up for debate as with terminals numbered the conductors are still 'arranged' so may well still satisfy the reg.
For me cable markers are not required for the fuseboard pictured. 514.1.2 is far too wooley to apply in this instance i think.
For me cable markers are not required for the fuseboard pictured. 514.1.2 is far too wooley to apply in this instance i think.
- Reaction score
- 10,215
I do get your drift and not totally against your thinking but as you may realise Im very conservative regarding regs and although I don't really bother with domestic I would in the OP case Number the cores up - the installer here has the benefit of knowing his work he's installed and thus may be complacent as to bother with marking up if say following the cores back would require stripping down of the board. Consider the installer did all his work and accidentally mixed N up in the N block ... all following Electricians now are set with the possibility of dropping out a N from an opposing circuit by accident and although he may have safely isolated the board he may subject an insulation test to a circuit that has sensitive equipment on it thinking he testing to another cable core...
To this day i still see registered Electricians confusing the order of the N and E block and in some cases just not bothering to try and unless you can follow them back to confirm then you have the real possibility of having to disconnect all the cables and lift the main busbar carriage out while the live tails still connected, can you seriously tell me you have never come across a old wylex etc where the cables were either singles or so jammed up it took unnecessary time sorting it out just to start testing... and you say its really not for the domestic realm.
If you cannot as ive commented before simply follow cable cores to their original cable for identifying the corresponding cores then you will be subject to the regulation regardless of the nature of the building, If you take step to make it easy to ID cable then no problem you could even run a trunking above the DB and strip all the cores back into the trunking as it gives easy access to visually follow with nothing more than maybe a cable wiggle.
You shouldn't soften your approach to the regs just because your in domestic it applies just as strong as it does in a 36way 3phase panel.... Considering that these big panels often provide the necessary room to make cables easy to follow its the case that a 15way DB in a house may be subject to this regulation more so than the industrial set up... all though i mark all mine as the mark of professionalism and pride in my work.
No need to number these according to the Regs but it adds that extra bit of professionalism, as well as picking a board to match the paint work
..
Last edited:
OP
wozz
thnkyou for the grown up debate darkwood.
I agree with the sentiment of your post, and the standard of which you are promoting, i just dont think 514.1.2 asks for it, and with the old system a simple domestic fuseboard with no cable markers would or should have attracted a code 4. i think i will just agree to disagree with you. And i have no pictures to show :smiley2:
I agree with the sentiment of your post, and the standard of which you are promoting, i just dont think 514.1.2 asks for it, and with the old system a simple domestic fuseboard with no cable markers would or should have attracted a code 4. i think i will just agree to disagree with you. And i have no pictures to show :smiley2:
Reply to **Show Us Your Installs!!!** in the Australia area at ElectriciansForums.net
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