D

Darkwood

Right ... Just been nudged to set this up by Paul.M and sounds a good idea following recent threads I've done in the Arms..

Rules....No Offensive material... edit if required before posting as this is the public arena.
Anything to do with the trade or in and around it ...H&S pic's welcome.

Beware plumbers!!!.jpg

I've posted this a few times and this is at a mates house following a kitchen refirb several yrs ago. :omg_smile:

Beware plumbers!!!.jpg
 
Im guessing that the power coming in is via the furthest right hand side breaker...

That is a special kind of badgers arse consumer unit , that is so bad its actually quite funny
Correct

It is fed from a 32a MCB in the main CU but this is where the right way of doing it stops.
Live is then fed to the far right 32a MCB in this board, with a link back to the RCD, the neutral is direct to the RCD. And every circuit is fed upside down.

Impressive to get it that wrong. ?
 
View attachment 89126

Surprised everything still operates. Is that some chewing gum they've left on the misplaced bus bar?
I did think that when I first opened it up.
It’s a bit of mortar that’s dropped in the excessive opening at the top.

7DA4179C-9C6B-4B4F-8EF5-5F12084063A7.jpeg

Aside from that is directly exposed, looks like a snake mating ball and needs to be in a wiring centre.

They have cut the earth from the stop cock (just inside the wall to the right) so there is now no earth to any of the pipes in the property. They choc-bloc it into the heating system to give that an earth (I think the plumber might have had a go here). I tested all the pipes I could read with my wander lead and none got anywhere near the 0.05ohm allowance. Lowest I got was 13.6

B6E1D55C-E8F8-4A9F-9FDE-EC27518B8B90.jpeg

But at least they cut the earth off the metal sink/drainer as it wouldn’t have worked anyway. ?
 
Correct

It is fed from a 32a MCB in the main CU but this is where the right way of doing it stops.
Live is then fed to the far right 32a MCB in this board, with a link back to the RCD, the neutral is direct to the RCD. And every circuit is fed upside down.

Impressive to get it that wrong. ?
I think that's the best one yet or at least for a long while.
That would have made an excellent game of "find the incoming supply". May I steal this photo for training purposes?!
I'd found the live, but still can't totally fathom the Neutral as it looks like the bottom left of the RCD goes straight to the N bar....
 
My first words when I opened it up where ‘what the actual F!’
I think that's the best one yet or at least for a long while.
That would have made an excellent game of "find the incoming supply". May I steal this photo for training purposes?!
I'd found the live, but still can't totally fathom the Neutral as it looks like the bottom left of the RCD goes straight to the N bar....

Of course, feel free.

I haven't touched that board yet. I've got to go back later in the week. So will fathom out how it is wired.

Property has 2 CU's. Both have 10 circuits. All 20 circuits are not labelled. So I spent 5hrs yesterday playing my favourite game of hunt the circuit for the first CU. Only reason I had the cover off was to see which MCB from the main CU fed that one.
 
I can't make any sense of that

Looks like the outgoing side is supplying the incoming side of RCD
I think I've got it...it only makes sense if there's a break in the bus bar behind the mortar though.
Otherwise the RCD would trip if the far right breaker that reverse feeds the non-protected half was on.
Special!

1629882943894.png
 
I reckon it's someone from Europe - over there you feed the tops and the load comes out the bottom.
I have it on good authority from both Legrand and Hager that their MCB's can be used in both directions.

Looking at the gap between the two MCB's below the mortar snot, it would seem the busbar is not continuous as suggested by Tim.
 
Last edited:
Yeah, new CU. The other immediate thought is max demand / upstream protection given ?6mm incoming conductors. Hope it's SWA. Also might be a 2.5mm in a B32. Anyway, lots to investigate!
 
Last edited:
I think a new board is a bit extreme, especially if it's not damaged, (can't see the lid) Legrand is a very good quality product, re-wiring of the board is possibly all that is needed.

As a secondary board does it need a main switch, if all the circuits are protected by an RCD? Certainly in Europe the main board would cover that, it is now a requirement not to have a secondary board supplied from an RCD, but from a cut out switch and an RCD in the secondary board.
 
As a secondary board does it need a main switch, if all the circuits are protected by an RCD?
You'd want one isolation point on the board for the whole thing. At present not everything is hanging off the RCD.

I agree Legrand is decent kit, though can be pricey to get parts for.
I guess you could shove it all along and fit the correct isolator, and reconfigure it correctly. But in the case the board is probably the last thing to consider, as I'd have inquisitive questions about some of the final circuits first which may require a different selection of MCB's / RCBO's to solve, leading to new CU for other reasons.
 
Very good standard of work there
Thanks, I try (or as I said, used to try). Used to get people saying I'm very trying ?
One thing that always puzzled me about data cables was multicompartment pvc trunking
It's functional but it's designed to parallel mains and data cabling which isn't really what you want to be doing
It's quite common for dado trunking etc. TBH it's not that big of a problem as many uses (ethernet, phone) is designed to be interference tolerant - twisted pairs using differential signalling. The main thing is the physical segregation for electrical safety which was certainly part of the rules for phone cabling when that side of things started getting deregulated.

My biggest bugbear is where the sparkies do all the containment but simply don't care and don't think about the space needed. One job I recall, the guy's work was very good - nice and neat. But he was clueless about a few things which showed that he was really just doing it by the numbers. And he had the cheek to say it must be nice when someone else does all the hard work for you !
Run down the wall of a smallish office, total of 24 points, Rehau trunking which is nice as the lower section is part of the main structure and forms a trough that cables will sit in - as compared with most makes where you have to persuade cables to hang uphill while you get the lower cover on ? But the guy had taken the big space for a couple of RFCs and a bonding conductor, leaving me only the small top section to fit in the 24 network cables and a multi-pair phone cable. Had to give up and route the phone cable elsewhere. The guy was adamant that a) there was no separator available to make the lower section into a third compartment (I looked it up later, there was), and b) that only the larger middle section could be used for power because otherwise the insulation wouldn't work ? Seriously there are sparkies out there who believe that an insulating barrier in such trunking is directional.
The only time I've seen an issue using the middle section for other than power is that some trunking has open-backed mounting frames for sockets - so the back of power sockets would be open to whatever cables run behind. But even those (from memory) had the option of closed boxes.

The other bugbear was where the sparkies ran the cables, and as illustrated, DGAS about keeping them organised, labelling them, or even making them long enough. I had one job where there was a cable that was just 6 inch sticking out of the wall and I had to extend about 10% of them to reach the rack. It's the "I'll be gone and been paid before the next guy comes along" attitude.
I have it on good authority from both Legrand and Hager that their MCB's can be used in both directions.
That was my thought as well - it's AC, the current goes both ways by definition. It's hard to imagine how you could built a device like this that didn't work either way round.
 
That was my thought as well - it's AC, the current goes both ways by definition. It's hard to imagine how you could built a device like this that didn't work either way round.
The electrical characteristics of the device don't care, but the mechanical ones might. The top terminal will need to be capable of accepting a busbar, and the bottom, a cable.
 
It has been modified outside of the manufacturers recommendations and I would not be interested in reinstating it.
What the actual board/MCB's have? Where?

I'm not trying to be argumentative i genuinely can't see how there's anything wrong with the board. You'll be stripping everything out to change the board anyway, so just strip it out and then put it back correctly. No difference, less cost, less work. ?‍♂️
 
What the actual board/MCB's have? Where?

I'm not trying to be argumentative i genuinely can't see how there's anything wrong with the board. You'll be stripping everything out to change the board anyway, so just strip it out and then put it back correctly. No difference, less cost, less work. ?‍♂️
Do you what it's original configuration was from that picture.
 
If you strip everything out you just have an RCD, MCB's, earth and neutral bars. Could you explain more what the problem is because i'm not getting it. I'm a soon-to-be trainee and eager to learn.
There may well never be an issue if you reconfigure it but for my professional integrity I want something, that if it goes wrong then I hopefully have the manufacturer to fall back on.
If I was asked to fit a consumer unit and someone produced that from the back of a van then I would walk away.
 
Could you explain more what the problem is because i'm not getting it. I'm a soon-to-be trainee and eager to learn.

In more detail the argument goes something like this:
There's a reg that's new in 18th edition (536.4.203) which refers to components that are used in consumer units and says they must only be those that have been declared suitable for that purpose by the manufacturer of the assembly. It goes on to say in a note that you can do what you like but you assume responsibilities of the manufacturer by doing so. (paraphrased, don't have BS7671 here)
So any time you introduce a component into a consumer unit, whether the manufacturer intended it to be there comes into play.
Furthermore in this case, while it looks as though the breakers and RCD are all friendly co-operative parts, we can't say the bus bar is definitely original and can't say that the link cables are. We can't say how the manufacturer intended the components to be arranged. For example it might be that the RCD is designed to sit at the RH end and gets warm by design on the RH side. Having it at LH end might unduly heat up an MCB. Who knows?!
CEF do sell a modern Legrand main switch which may or may not be approved and tested by Legrand to sit next to the older design breakers, one end or other.

Bottom line, there isn't a black and white answer here in my view. Some would be happy to throw it together and quantify and accept the risk. Others would understandably prefer to replace the CU with an approved configuration of certified parts according to the manufacturers instructions and have some comeback from them if it catches fire.
 
In more detail the argument goes something like this:
There's a reg that's new in 18th edition (536.4.203) which refers to components that are used in consumer units and says they must only be those that have been declared suitable for that purpose by the manufacturer of the assembly. It goes on to say in a note that you can do what you like but you assume responsibilities of the manufacturer by doing so. (paraphrased, don't have BS7671 here)
So any time you introduce a component into a consumer unit, whether the manufacturer intended it to be there comes into play.
Furthermore in this case, while it looks as though the breakers and RCD are all friendly co-operative parts, we can't say the bus bar is definitely original and can't say that the link cables are. We can't say how the manufacturer intended the components to be arranged. For example it might be that the RCD is designed to sit at the RH end and gets warm by design on the RH side. Having it at LH end might unduly heat up an MCB. Who knows?!
CEF do sell a modern Legrand main switch which may or may not be approved and tested by Legrand to sit next to the older design breakers, one end or other.

Bottom line, there isn't a black and white answer here in my view. Some would be happy to throw it together and quantify and accept the risk. Others would understandably prefer to replace the CU with an approved configuration of certified parts according to the manufacturers instructions and have some comeback from them if it catches fire.
Ah right the explanation about the parts maybe malfunctioning or having undergone stress due to the current config makes sense to me. Thanks for the explanation.
 
While I can agree with some, most of the rest - I think taking offence that a piece of copper cable isn't original is taking things a bit too far.
The key is what do you stand to gain?

Saving the customer the cost of a new CU and components, sure, but what do you gain? It's all downside risk, however small.

Now if it was a close friend or family member I may put the effort in to put it right.

But for a paying customer, who'll throw you under the bus the minute something goes wrong, then nah, stick new in.
 
if you insure with direct line, they can get you an electricain, a plumber, and a "drainage engineer". since when did a shyte shifter deserve such a title?
 
I think I've got it...it only makes sense if there's a break in the bus bar behind the mortar though.
Otherwise the RCD would trip if the far right breaker that reverse feeds the non-protected half was on.
Special!

View attachment 89132

Theres a gap ,i think u have it right on the busbar

That's the feed terminated in bottom of 32amp mcb and looped across to RCD ?

32amp mcb feeds lighting ways and RCD is direct off supply, daft arrangement if that's it
 
In more detail the argument goes something like this:
There's a reg that's new in 18th edition (536.4.203) which refers to components that are used in consumer units and
The regs are more general, it is really a reference to any assembly of electrical parts. In the domestic world that really comes down to the CU, but beyond that it really applies to anything to put together to do a job in an installation.

Some aspects of the standards cited are only applicable to big systems (forget the details but over 100A at least) where it covers aspects like would busbars bend under huge fault currents, etc, etc. But generally the way it is interpreted is as @timhoward say - stick to a supplier's pre-assembled CU or at least the list of parts they declare as compatible.

While I am normally happy with sane and reasoned attempts to replace difficult parts instead of ripping the whole lot out, when presented with something like that I would agree with @westward10 and feel very uneasy at re-using something obviously bodged and of unknown provenance. Especailly as the cost of fixing it properly would be dominated by the skilled time, not by the likes of a budget Fusebox (or similar) CU where it is known to be as specified..
 

OFFICIAL SPONSORS

Electrical Goods - Electrical Tools - Brand Names Electrician Courses Green Electrical Goods PCB Way Green 2 Go Pushfit Wire Connectors Electric Underfloor Heating Electrician Courses Heating 2 Go
These Official Forum Sponsors May Provide Discounts to Regular Forum Members - If you would like to sponsor us then CLICK HERE and post a thread with who you are, and we'll send you some stats etc

Advert

Daily, weekly or monthly email

Thread Information

Title
Dodgy trade pictures for your amusement! - 1 Million Views!
Prefix
N/A
Forum
UK Electrical Forum
Start date
Last reply date
Replies
8K
Unsolved
--

Advert

Thread statistics

Created
Darkwood,
Last reply from
mainline,
Replies
8,099
Views
1,238,865

Advert

Back
Top