Electrical Bathroom Wiring Drawing... Comments / Advise Please!!!!

mickys86 said:

He's not asking for your part p membership, he isn't asking to make a claim on your insurance, he isn't asking to borrow your equipment nor is he asking you how to test and inspect. He isn't asking for you to send him a certificate neither.
It's his own house and it's up to him what he does in it. He isn't out working as a spark illegally he just wants to make sure he's right. He didn't ask us how to do it. He went out and done his own homework and just asked some one to glance over it.

I feel the thread has gone way off course from the opening post I bet the op is reading this thinking "oh dear what have I started. I only asked if my wiring diagram looked correct"

Click to expand...

Well said, however the OP may be able to produce a very nice wiring diagram in glorious colour whilst sat in the comfort of his own home whilst sipping a cup of Earl Grey. Lets look at his design more closely as pointed out earlier in this thread:

The original design:



Looks lovely that doesn't it?

Take a closer look:



If a simple mistake like this is made in a nice comfy area, what happens when working in the dusty confines of a loft with poor lighting, rafters and nails sticking into your knees, itching arms from the insulation, frustration from the dropped grub screw. Think about harmonisation etc. No proper test equipment or procedures = potentially dangerous installation.

And this design is from someone who takes DIY seriously and wants to do a proper job.

Side note: I do my own vehicle repairs that are within my ability, time served apprentice mechanic but I'm so out of touch I wouldn't even consider touching a lot of vehicle jobs now.

Mt two penneth, for what it's worth.

DIYBlues said:

Hi Top Cat

I think I'm hated more then I am loved on here, however I didn't think it would cause so much controversy, BUT Mickys86 said it much better then I could have.

Thanks Mickeys86, Thanks Top Cat and Thanks Dave 85

Click to expand...

think, having followed this thread, that the controversy etc. is not aimed at you, but at the system.

DIYBlues, don't take it heart mate. There's a lot of frustration in the industry at the minute, it only takes a spark... (get what I did there???).

trev said:

Dave, I didn't say I did my own brake pad changes. What I said was I could if I wanted to.
I'm aware of my own limitations and stopping the car before killing someone/myself is one of them. Actually I would not trust myself to change the pads because I know that the mechanic with training will do the job better, quicker and to a higher standard than I would and that he probably has a set of test procedures to go through before handing my car back to me.
I also said that I could go and buy a boiler and a load of pipe, that doesn't mean that I'm off out on Monday throwing in heating systems

Sorry to come across as a bit arsey here mate but I do not see any hypocrisy in anything I've said and the only times I tick people off for wanting to do their own electrics is if I get the idea that they're out of their depth.

Part P is there to stop builders dfoing shoddy electrical work? Yeah right, like that's ever worked

Click to expand...

Sorry, dunno were I got the thing about brake pads from. Realised that after I posted but it serves as a good example of what Im getting at.

The thing about part P stopping builders...Ok so there are still plenty of builders doing electrical work, but anyone who refuses to admit that it hasnt either 1: stopped a large number of them or 2: forced the ones who were gonna do it anyway to either go and get 'some' training or do it to a standard that their sparky pal is willing to sign off, is living in a dream world. Thats how it is round my area anyway.
"I used to do my own wiring but I cant anymore cos of part P"-heard it a hundred times from other trades who I work for.

And lets face it, where a building inspector is involved its gotta be certed. Better a builder with 5 weeks training than none at all. The work I come across in blue and brown is generally done to a far better standard than the lash ups I frequently come across in white T&E.

DIYBlues said:

Hi Top Cat

I think I'm hated more then I am loved on here, however I didn't think it would cause so much controversy, BUT Mickys86 said it much better then I could have.

Thanks Mickeys86, Thanks Top Cat and Thanks Dave 85

Click to expand...

Dont worry, Im sure us youngsters will be bitter old gits in 30 yrs time, fed up with the speed with which the world around us is changing.

Dave 85 said:

I completely agree with what you are saying here Trev but I find it slightly hypocrytical that you admit to working on your own car

Click to expand...

That's where the brake pads thing came from

Dave 85 said:

Sorry, dunno were I got the thing about brake pads from. Realised that after I posted but it serves as a good example of what Im getting at.

The thing about part P stopping builders...Ok so there are still plenty of builders doing electrical work, but anyone who refuses to admit that it hasnt either 1: stopped a large number of them or 2: forced the ones who were gonna do it anyway to either go and get 'some' training or do it to a standard that their sparky pal is willing to sign off, is living in a dream world. Thats how it is round my area anyway.
"I used to do my own wiring but I cant anymore cos of part P"-heard it a hundred times from other trades who I work for

Click to expand...

How many lash ups have you come across carried out by Tommy down the pub cos he knows what he's doing with electrics?
Come on mate, you have to admit that part p really isn't working

trev said:

That's where the brake pads thing came from


How many lash ups have you come across carried out by Tommy down the pub cos he knows what he's doing with electrics?
Come on mate, you have to admit that part p really isn't working

Click to expand...

To be honest mate, its all I've ever known. I only started my training seven years ago, but I think it is far better than what was there before...ie nothing. Im glad its there and would be rather upset if it was abolished. I think its a fairly flawed concept but in a way, its other trades ignorance of how flawed it is that stops a lot of them doing wiring.

I know im virtually alone here on being pro part P but hey, I've always been a bit of a maverick.

The fact is, a builder with a five week course and part P registration (and a brain) whos had good experience doing and seeing done, domestic wiring, may well do a far better domestic job than a guy whos got 5 years training but has been a maintenance spark in a factory for 20 years.

I honstly think that a lot of the hatred towards part P comes from 1: Time served sparkies who feel they cannot work in their own homes or do small PJ's because they do not run a Part P reg firm (lets face it, theres absolutely nothing stopping them) and 2: People who have taken years of training and low wages who feel that the Electrical Trainee's are somehow cheating them.

Just because apprenticeships for everyone who does electrical work, regardless of what type is the way its traditionally been done, doesn't mean its the correct way.

Des 56 said:

may well do a far better domestic job than a guy whos got 5 years training but has been a maintenance spark in a factory for 20 years.

I am not a basher of people trying to get on these days with changing training and expectations,but that type of reply is borne out of ignorance

Click to expand...

Sorry, but I don't agree with that Des 56. If you are going to use that argument then it should also be said that the people that frequently/religiously bash Electrical Trainee on this forum are also making the comments 'out of ignorance'.

Des 56 said:

The maintenance spark is on the whole a better informed and all round competent spark,who actually understands much more about electrical theory and practices,than the vast majority of apprentice trained installation sparks,never mind domestic short term trained people

They would more likely adapt to any electrical discipline
I find the comment that was made unbelievably ill informed about the quality of time served sparks in disciplines other than very basic domestic installation

Click to expand...

It always boils down to the individual. There are good and bad 'time served' sparks. There are good and bad 'Electrical Trainee' and one cant say much more than that. It's what makes us individuals and this forum so fun and interesting. (Along with qualifications) Competence is a measure that an electrician should always be looking inwardly at when deciding to take or not take a job on. But that is different to a DIY'er with no test equipment, no electrical qualifications and not being Part P registered, wanting to wire up a bathroom that knows and openly admits requires certifaction. As they say ignorance is no defence of the law (even if the law in this instance is an ---). As I previously said, in the world of the litigious society allowing members to give advice to DIY'ers openly floating the law opens up the forum owners to potential litigation if anything were ever to go wrong (in my opinion).

Yeah, Part P is a donkey of a scheme and a money making scheme at that. But it's here to stay, no doubt in an amended way. We all had an opportunity to make our views known in the consultation document/period and I'm sure some members on here did and others didn't and there will also be those members that continue to moan about the state of the industry. However if electrical work is your career, sooner or later you have to decide which side of the pot you want to stand on - ****ing in or ****ing out, so to speak, whether you make that decision consciously or sub-conciously.

On a lighter note, if Part P is sooo disliked, all sparks should move to areas where it doesn't exist. Then where would England and Wales be, without any sparks? DIY'ers heaven?...

richy3333 said:

On a lighter note, if Part P is sooo disliked, all sparks should move to areas where it doesn't exist. Then where would England and Wales be, without any sparks? DIY'ers heaven?...

Click to expand...

I think that with all the "how to..." DVDs, we are already in DIY'ers heaven mate

When I started out...(late 70's!!)...(all hair and tank tops)...there were NICEIC registered contractors....and there were non NICEIC contractors...and there was the bloke in the pub who was a bit handy.Joe Public got an NIC contractor in if he wanted to be sure it was done right,Joe public recognised the NIC as the only guarantee of quality,he knew an NIC contractor would only use time served electricians. Failing that he would go on recommendations if the contractor was not registered....if he was a muppet he got matey from the three feathers...or if he fancied a go himself he could.
Seems a far better system than now,with so many scam providers that nobody outside the trade has ever heard of....and all this 'illegal to work in your bathroom but not in your lounge' nonsense...Joe public had a choice,he paid his money and knew what he was getting for it. Now he can pay the same money to any number of contractors registered with 'professional' bodies and STILL end up with a botch by a Electrical Trainee who hasnt got a clue.....is it any wonder many decide to do it themselves?
This entire thread smacks of a 'not in my backyard' mentallity amongst electricians.

wirepuller said:

When I started out...(late 70's!!)...(all hair and tank tops)...there were NICEIC registered contractors....and there were non NICEIC contractors...and there was the bloke in the pub who was a bit handy.Joe Public got an NIC contractor in if he wanted to be sure it was done right,Joe public recognised the NIC as the only guarantee of quality,he knew an NIC contractor would only use time served electricians. Failing that he would go on recommendations if the contractor was not registered....if he was a muppet he got matey from the three feathers...or if he fancied a go himself he could.
Seems a far better system than now,with so many scam providers that nobody outside the trade has ever heard of....and all this 'illegal to work in your bathroom but not in your lounge' nonsense...Joe public had a choice,he paid his money and knew what he was getting for it. Now he can pay the same money to any number of contractors registered with 'professional' bodies and STILL end up with a botch by a Electrical Trainee or stuck-in-the mud dinosaur sparky who hasn't updated to the 17th ED who hasnt got a clue.....is it any wonder many decide to do it themselves?
This entire thread smacks of a 'not in my backyard' mentallity amongst electricians.

Click to expand...

Totally agree Wirepuller, but your comments 'swing both ways' - there's good and bad out there whether a Electrical Trainee or apprentice, time served electrician (just trying to add balance to the debate). The 'rules' are so complicated now that even sparkies have trouble understanding them, so what chance does 'Joe Public' have?

Dave 85 said:

I know im virtually alone here on being pro part P but hey, I've always been a bit of a maverick.

Click to expand...

This may shock you but I'm not actually anti part p, I'm just anti it in it's current form.

Hi,

When ever I wire bathrooms now, I wire EVERYTHING back to the fan isolator. So FEED IN / SL + N to the light / L + SL to pull switch / 3core to the fan.

This means no JB and only one cable at each accessory. I will draw a diagram later.

Rich