OP
KAS1
Just shows even after 10 years people are still learning, nobody knows it all that's what we're all here for to share things we know
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- consumer consumer unit crimps unit
Discuss Crimps in consumer unit? in the Electrical Wiring, Theories and Regulations area at ElectriciansForums.net
OP
Octopus
Back to the OP, what load is there going to be on the new sockets? If its small I'd do a spur from the CU to a FCU, then to the sockets. Far better IMHO
OP
KAS1
I like this answer as well , I bet you wouldn't of even asked the question.
crimped lots of cables on house bashing, never had any problem, good ratchet crimper and insulated blue crimps do the job for 2.5 cable. its not nasa, those cables wont fly to space.
you can stick them in some wago too.
you can stick them in some wago too.
OP
KAS1
Where would you use crimps house bashing?
Jdsparky
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Take one leg out and put to a socket next to consumer unit then on to other sockets then return to cu if you don't want any joints, be it crimps, connector blocks or other methods....nice easy test point aswell for Rcd tripping times in future cus that's all it would get used for lol
always crimps, never knew about the solid core thing tho,
'spose I'll never get that job at NASA now
'spose I'll never get that job at NASA now
OP
Engineer54
ME, and have terminated MICC cores far more time's than i care to remember using crimped terminations!!
OP
Engineer54
Never had the problems that have been mentioned above, crimping solid core cables. The only bad crimps i've seen using a good crimping tool and good crimps, have been down to operator error!!
Though i don't like the PVC insulated crimps, i prefer the heat shrink type, and better still bare crimps, with heat shrink tube covering!!
Though i don't like the PVC insulated crimps, i prefer the heat shrink type, and better still bare crimps, with heat shrink tube covering!!
OP
vaughant
What's wrong with solder and heat shrink?
Would be as good as the original then?
Would be as good as the original then?
Only place I would use crimps and lugs when hoose bashing would be on the bonding conductors or at the rod if its a TT
and on fly leads when using SWA!.
I don't understand that question. Anywhere where you'd need to make a sound connection....
OP
Engineer54
On virtually every project i've been involved with, on final distribution boards every termination into protective devices, relays, contactors and the like within those distribution boards have ALL been crimped terminations of one type or another!!
As far as i've seen, rail signaling cables and the like are basically all stranded cables anyway, as are cabling and wiring on the trains themselves, The same as your typical car, stranded wiring is used throughout for obvious reasons. Your typical electrical installation isn't subject to continuous vibration or anything like it, so why try and impose rules based on criteria that it won't be subject too!!
As for the wiggling free thing, you can say exactly the same thing about every screwed wire/cable connection ever made, ...So do we ban these now??
Let commonsense rule for a change!! lol!!
As far as i've seen, rail signaling cables and the like are basically all stranded cables anyway, as are cabling and wiring on the trains themselves, The same as your typical car, stranded wiring is used throughout for obvious reasons. Your typical electrical installation isn't subject to continuous vibration or anything like it, so why try and impose rules based on criteria that it won't be subject too!!
As for the wiggling free thing, you can say exactly the same thing about every screwed wire/cable connection ever made, ...So do we ban these now??
Let commonsense rule for a change!! lol!!
Darkwood
Arms
I see your reasoning E54 but consider a bunch crimps within a consumer unit YES! untouched and no vibration they may well serve there purpose but any following spark who makes additions, test or alterations and moves the cables cannot know or guarantee the integrity of the original joint hasnt been compromised simple saying it isnt subject to continuous vibration or anything is a poor argument to justify what amongst many industries has been deemed to be bad practice and a unreliable jointing method (refering to solid core crimping using standard ratchet and crimps).
Just because you may not of had or experienced any issues with this method does not justify it in a debate, all cable connection methods used throughout any industry has been scrutinised tested and examined to determine whether acceptable and crimping with standard ratchet and using standard crimps fails the test because of the reasons in my previous post -the solid core keeps shape while the crimp deforms around it which is not how the manufacturers designed it.. the crimp needs to take the shape its designed to do and the cable needs to mould to this crimp shape which isnt an issue when cores are stranded.
The reason why its a grey area in our industry is its been accepted that this isnt a wide spread practice as those who crimp often know it shouldn't be done and many alternatives exist, its just the case that your average domestic sparky tools up with a crimper and thinks its versatile and usable for all types of cable which had they done their research they will find it is not.
I was taught at college about the various crimping methods and tools we were shown blown up images of incorrect crimping methods and why and one showed a solid core and the crimp itself had fracture lines and contact free pockets around the core meaning surface area contact was minimal, i see often those argue against me saying they never had an isssue etc etc but with no other backing of the argument... if you want il try digging out my 25yr old college papers and forward the pics
Just an Edit to re-iterate we are discussing using the standard ratchet crimp and standard crimps here other forms of crimp are acceptabe on solid and are so designed i.e. data cables, telephone crimps etc
Just because you may not of had or experienced any issues with this method does not justify it in a debate, all cable connection methods used throughout any industry has been scrutinised tested and examined to determine whether acceptable and crimping with standard ratchet and using standard crimps fails the test because of the reasons in my previous post -the solid core keeps shape while the crimp deforms around it which is not how the manufacturers designed it.. the crimp needs to take the shape its designed to do and the cable needs to mould to this crimp shape which isnt an issue when cores are stranded.
The reason why its a grey area in our industry is its been accepted that this isnt a wide spread practice as those who crimp often know it shouldn't be done and many alternatives exist, its just the case that your average domestic sparky tools up with a crimper and thinks its versatile and usable for all types of cable which had they done their research they will find it is not.
I was taught at college about the various crimping methods and tools we were shown blown up images of incorrect crimping methods and why and one showed a solid core and the crimp itself had fracture lines and contact free pockets around the core meaning surface area contact was minimal, i see often those argue against me saying they never had an isssue etc etc but with no other backing of the argument... if you want il try digging out my 25yr old college papers and forward the pics
Just an Edit to re-iterate we are discussing using the standard ratchet crimp and standard crimps here other forms of crimp are acceptabe on solid and are so designed i.e. data cables, telephone crimps etc
Last edited:
OP
Engineer54
On this occaision i'm going to have to disagree with you darkwood. You make a good solidly crimped connection to a solid cored cable, sound as if it's a disaster waiting to happen, and i know the truth of the matter, is that it isn't! It'll still be there giving sterling service long after i've left this earth.
I defy anyone to wiggle or pull a solid core conductor out of a well made crimped connection (unless your King Kong..lol!!). If you can say the same for a screwed connection, i'd be very impressed!!
Having said that, i'm not keen at all on the popular coloured PVC crimps, to big and bulky and easily misaligned in the crimping tool jaws. My preference is bare crimps that are then over covered with heat shrink over the actual connection and an over all cover of heat-shrink (talking about Butt crimps here).
I can understand your reasoning if were talking about a moving/vibrating environment, but were not. ... Moving a cable within a DB/CU at a future date isn't going to degrade a crimped connection to a point of failure, this is also a non-starter for an argument against crimped connectors...
I defy anyone to wiggle or pull a solid core conductor out of a well made crimped connection (unless your King Kong..lol!!). If you can say the same for a screwed connection, i'd be very impressed!!
Having said that, i'm not keen at all on the popular coloured PVC crimps, to big and bulky and easily misaligned in the crimping tool jaws. My preference is bare crimps that are then over covered with heat shrink over the actual connection and an over all cover of heat-shrink (talking about Butt crimps here).
I can understand your reasoning if were talking about a moving/vibrating environment, but were not. ... Moving a cable within a DB/CU at a future date isn't going to degrade a crimped connection to a point of failure, this is also a non-starter for an argument against crimped connectors...
Last edited by a moderator:
Darkwood
Arms
Well on this occasion we will agree to disagree as i have alot of respect for your input on this forum but out of interest il set you a task of finding a picture of butt crimps or even ring lugs on the internet done on solid cable (without taking a pic yourself and cheating)...I found examples of poor crimps and bad practices but all are shown using stranded or fine wire ...out of the whole world wide web you'd have thought if it was so designed for solid there would be at least some examples of crimping it?
OP
KAS1
and these will be stranded cables no doubt
OP
Engineer54
Agreed, and also have a lot of respect for your inputs on the forum too...
I'm not going by what others have stated, or what has been printed etc. I'm basing all i have stated on this issue, on the literary hundreds of thousands of crimped terminations at final DB/CU boards among other areas, over numerous specified project contracts, over too many years to think about!! lol!!
Darkwood
Arms
Just relating back to those who express the crimps feel sound and cant be pulled apart i like to show a few examples... one good and one bad but both pass the strain test and this is why its a poor way to judge a crimp joint. PS i couldnt find a crimp joint on solid as manufacturers dont design butt crimps and lugs for this so examples of them are scarce.
.![[ElectriciansForums.net] Crimps in consumer unit?](https://electricians.s3.eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/data/attachments/10/10133-b989e69f435b9e4d822c40965c84b68d.jpg "[ElectriciansForums.net] Crimps in consumer unit?")
. ![[ElectriciansForums.net] Crimps in consumer unit?](https://electricians.s3.eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/data/attachments/10/10134-4021491ac863b9c896b29e7a1fe867e7.jpg "[ElectriciansForums.net] Crimps in consumer unit?")
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OP
KAS1
sorry, do you mean you use materials for jobs that they are not intended for?
OP
Engineer54
I'd stick with your ''screwed'' connectors they will surely out perform a ''crimped'' connection!! Well in your world anyway!! lol!!
OP
KAS1
Perhaps in China they do as they please with crimps lol just accept the fact you have been wrong all these years, please use the right crimp for the right job, the type of crimp that this threat started with as far as I could make out is the straight through insulated blue type, which is fine as long as it is used on stranded / flexible cores and in an enclosure. End of story
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