2391 is it really fair?

[Bright-spark]

Do you not think that the reason 'Electrical Trainee' pass is because they are a fresh page, they haven't been doing it the way they think is correct for the last however many years etc?
Especially with the terminology.

As you say 'especially with the terminology'. From experience, generally speaking people with little or no experience of electrical installation, do not struggle with terminology, they do not come with preconceived ideas or a collection of 'urban myths' that have no bearing on the requirements of the wiring regulations. The area that these individuals struggle with is when the 2391 question calls for the use of a candidates 'experience' in answering a question. How does one answer a question relating to the inspection of steel containment systems if one has never seen one let alone installed one?

Anyone can learn procedures and methods of carrying out tests, but when it comes to inspection of something that you have little or no experience of or testing of something that has not been installed as per the 'norm', thats where the issues arise. 2391 has never been a qualification that is restricted to a particular type of installation. If it is covered by BS 7617 or information is contained within Guidance Note 3, then the question is fair.

Yes I am an academic these days but with 30 years industry experience.

 

[Guest55]

No, I think that's nonsense. Anyone who passes does it because they have put in enough work to do so

This point certainly applies to the written exam , but i also would like to add that i think that passing practical exams is down to practice and getting some experience beforehand.
Being a "fresh page" is no good when faced with isolation proceedures on a test rig with unfamiliar equipment and an assessor watching your every move lol.

 

[ruston]

This point certainly applies to the written exam , but i also would like to add that i think that passing practical exams is down to practice and getting some experience beforehand.
Being a "fresh page" is no good when faced with isolation proceedures on a test rig with unfamiliar equipment and an assessor watching your every move lol.

Yes I also agree with that. I think you have to treat the preparation for the exam with the same diligence as you would in say taking a driving test, you would'nt want to try blagging that then complain the test was too hard because you had just ridden a pushbike before and just sat in a car.

 

[Bright-spark]

This point certainly applies to the written exam , but i also would like to add that i think that passing practical exams is down to practice and getting some experience beforehand.
Being a "fresh page" is no good when faced with isolation proceedures on a test rig with unfamiliar equipment and an assessor watching your every move lol.

Unfortunatly the quality of the practical assessment is down to the centre running it. If the practical assessment is run according to City & Guilds rules, it will sort out those that can from those that can't. Many who supoosedly pass the practical can not pass the theory. It should be the other way round. If you know what you are doing you will pass the theory. If you don't know what you are doing you should not pass the practical. Unfortunatly it seems to be the other way round, many pass the practical but can't pass the theory which underpins the practical. If they don't know which instrument to use, how to set it or what readings to expect in a theory exam, how did they pass the practical?

Remember the pass mark for the 2391 is somthing like 60%. That means that someone who passes may not know 40% of the theory. At the end of the day a person carrying out Periodic Inspection has to make a decision based on sound 'engineering judgement' (not my words - IET's) whether or not an installation is 'Safe' enough to remain in service.

So is the 2391 fair? A resounding YES.

 

[ackbarthestar]

If you know what you are doing you will pass the theory. If you don't know what you are doing you should not pass the practical. Unfortunatly it seems to be the other way round, many pass the practical but can't pass the theory which underpins the practical. If they don't know which instrument to use, how to set it or what readings to expect in a theory exam, how did they pass the practical?

Read more: http://www.electriciansforums.net/i.../60617-2391-really-fair-13.html#ixzz21umrCsOn
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I think you will find an element of lip service to the principles of impartial assessment. Most college managers get upset because it reduces their bonus' if there are not enough pass throughput. That's possibly one reason that so few pass the theory exam.

 

[SPARTYKUS]

Bright-spark

Good post agree with most of what you say apart from the "anyone can learn testing procedures & methods....etc".


Not according to the pass rate. The quality of sparks' knowledge on my course was truly appalling. I watched a few ' practising ' on the test rig the day before & it was truly frightening. If they were under me they would have been off the tools within seconds.

Most didn't pass and a few were not allowed to continue the practical as their 'application' of what knowledge they had was deemed a risk to their own and everyone elses lives' in the building.

 

[rich.250]

As spartykus says......... its scary the general lack of knowledge on the course!!
And in some cases after LOL

 

[Guest55]

As spartykus says......... its scary the general lack of knowledge on the course!!
And in some cases after LOL

Agreed , hence my earlier comment about getting a few years experience on the tools before doing the course.
2391 was never intended to be taken by new recruits fresh out of a training centre lol.

 

[vaughant]

This point certainly applies to the written exam , but i also would like to add that i think that passing practical exams is down to practice and getting some experience beforehand.
Being a "fresh page" is no good when faced with isolation proceedures on a test rig with unfamiliar equipment and an assessor watching your every move lol.

Disagree with these comments tbh because just like the exam you can learn the test procedures parrot fashion very easily to the point where as the boards are laid out the same you could even (theoretically) just learn actually moving your probes etc to the points of test with no idea what your actually writing down.
Not saying you could do thus with zero experience on a 5 day course but over the ten week part timer I did you got at least 1/2 hr a lesson on the rig itself in teams of three,very easy to tag onto someone's coattails then and just observe,in the modern day technological world even just film it being done correctly and practice on a dummy rig.
With experience you literally do the tests automatically but I've seen a few sparks from a non industrial background get caught out on drive systems where due to capacitance the drive will hold up to 90v dc even after about 3 minutes at the output side yet when measuring the incomer it appears safe thus proving that YES,100% you SHOULD have had practical experience to
learn the pitfalls but for the sake of this test (2391) in the eyes of the government you don't actually need too.
i also agree there should be a minimum requirement of proof of continuous (or very close too) work experience in the electrical field before you can even get on the course.
As I stated previously though Swansea college did give me a thorough talking too before even allowing me to come on the course.

 

[SPARTYKUS]

Disagree with these comments tbh because just like the exam you can learn the test procedures parrot fashion very easily to the point where as the boards are laid out the same you could even (theoretically) just learn actually moving your probes etc to the points of test with no idea what your actually writing down.
Not saying you could do thus with zero experience on a 5 day course but over the ten week part timer I did you got at least 1/2 hr a lesson on the rig itself in teams of three,very easy to tag onto someone's coattails then and just observe,in the modern day technological world even just film it being done correctly and practice on a dummy rig.
With experience you literally do the tests automatically but I've seen a few sparks from a non industrial background get caught out on drive systems where due to capacitance the drive will hold up to 90v dc even after about 3 minutes at the output side yet when measuring the incomer it appears safe thus proving that YES,100% you SHOULD have had practical experience to
learn the pitfalls but for the sake of this test (2391) in the eyes of the government you don't actually need too.
i also agree there should be a minimum requirement of proof of continuous (or very close too) work experience in the electrical field before you can even get on the course.
As I stated previously though Swansea college did give me a thorough talking too before even allowing me to come on the course.

Hi

re : highlighted bit, I think thats a bit far off tbh, you'd have to be some kind of magician to have pulled that off at the college I did mine at. They were literally baying for blood, one bloke was about to do a Pfc test with RCD tester and was "removed" from the building.

All down to the testing centre but there wasn't any way of bluffing it parrot fashion when I did it. Maybe I had a good set of examiners.

 

[Guest55]

Hi

re : highlighted bit, I think thats a bit far off tbh, you'd have to be some kind of magician to have pulled that off at the college I did mine at. They were literally baying for blood, one bloke was about to do a Pfc test with RCD tester and was "removed" from the building.

All down to the testing centre but there wasn't any way of bluffing it parrot fashion when I did it. Maybe I had a good set of examiners.

Agree with sparty , the odds on passing the practical exam in this manner are not good to be honest.
And many assessors are very strict , but removing the guy doing the pfc test made me laff , i can picture burly bouncers man-handling the bloke shouting " your barred" lol.

 

[SPARTYKUS]

Agree with sparty , the odds on passing the practical exam in this manner are not good to be honest.
And many assessors are very strict , but removing the guy doing the pfc test made me laff , i can picture burly bouncers man-handling the bloke shouting " your barred" lol.

exact words were

"You're a danger to yourself, and everyone in the building, it's over"

 

[Guest55]

exact words were

"You're a danger to yourself, and everyone in the building, it's over"

now youre just pulling my chain lol
worst case scenario is he blows the crap out of the testers :-D

 

[SPARTYKUS]

Those were the words. Bloke looked like an angry bulldog. Kept head down & plodded on!

 

[BillyBigBalls]

I took the 2391 exam 14 June 2012 and still waiting for results. Does anyone know when I might receive my results. The exam wasn't too bad it's all about how much you put in as to what you want out of it

Hey Jonny, I sat the June 14th 2012 test. I've read somewhere they will notify us of the results after 42 days. It's been 44 days, including weekends, not sure if it is only business days.

Can anyone confirm it is a 42 day waiting time please guys?