2391 is it really fair? | Page 7 | on ElectriciansForums

Discuss 2391 is it really fair? in the Periodic Inspection Reporting & Certification area at ElectriciansForums.net

Yeah the same thing applys mate, for everything you get right in a 5 mark answer you will get 1 mark regardless of if and where you go wrong, so if you get stages 1 3 and 5 right you get 3 marks regardless of 2 and 4 being wrong. That's what I was trying to say in the second sentence
 
Strictly if you start off wrong then anything following which may be correct is ignored in the answer.
QUOTE]
When I resat the course we had a guy called Mike Enniss lecturing, he had been on the examining board and I'm just repeating what he told us mate
 
Back to the OP, I can't see what's unfair about this paper (Thanks widdler for sticking it up)
I did mine in 2003 and I thought it was one of the toughest exams I'd ever done (and I've done some stinkers).
Either in the meantime I've actually managed to learn most of it or it was an easy paper.
Mind you, I've noticed this before, at the time you're studying something new, it seems really hard, then you revisit it a number of years later and think 'That's easy, what was the problem?'
 
Like you Archy I can't see what's unfair about it, it's supposed to be something that's worth something not like one of these turn up for a class and get a bit of paper courses. I had to resit mine because I underestimated it, the day of my practical I found out my daughter was pregnant so my head was so far up my butt it was untrue. As a consequence I failed the practical but because first time round I'd passed that and failed theory (2nd time obviously passed theory) they gave me the qual.
You mention revisiting it and thinking "why did I worry" don't you think that's just because the pressure is off and you have more experience to base your judgment on
 
You mention revisiting it and thinking "why did I worry" don't you think that's just because the pressure is off and you have more experience to base your judgment on

No, I think initially one's brain is being bombarded with new information and concepts which you've got to regurgitate in a rapidly looming exam, it's hard (for me) to take in, in a short space of time.
Over the subsequent years, I suppose your brain assimilates it all and it starts to fall into place.
Aye, indeed, the pressure is off as well!
 
On a more general note is the underlying problem here.

In the mid 70's we had labourers, electricians, approved electricians, and technicians. To become a technician you had to have been an approved electrician for 5 years and have passed the 235 C. To be an approved electrician you needed to have been and electrician for 2 years and have passed the 235 B. To be an electrician you needed to have passed the 235 A, have an electrician's certificate and have completed a 5 year apprenticeship or equivalent.

I am not sure what the 235 A is equivalent to but maybe the present 2330 L2. The 2330 L3 is possibly equivalent to the old 235 B. For definite, the 235 C was the equivalent of the present 2391-10 and the 2391-20 combined. This was one qualification in those days. Employers (JIB) hated allowing their employees to undertake this course as it meant that they would have to pay them technician rates.

Because I had good school grades, at 16, I started straight on the B which meant that in 3 years I had the technical qualification to become and approved electrician. As I was still an apprentice I went onto the C. I passed the exams but was not permitted to finish my project. Having gained the electrician certificate at 19 years of age, I could be graded as an electrician a year earlier (after 4 years at 20). This meant that my employer was no longer obligated to send me to college. They immediately sent me to work away from home so I could not complete the project.

While it had its bad points, that system worked. It was changed by employers and governments in an effort to reduce costs. 5 year indentured apprenticeships do not exist now as far as I am aware. But on a more serious note, electrical improvers (anyone calling themselves and electrician) can install circuits and conduct basic tests which are signed off by a competent person at the office who has never even visited the site. Further, and worse still, someone who calls themselves and electrician can turn up on a short term contract for an employer and using their own test instruments, test the circuit and judge it safe. The employer saves on the cost of the test instrumentation, the maintenance and calibration of the instrument. The employer is getting (or thinks they are getting) an approved electrician at electricians rate or in some instances at apprentices rates.

The result is more persons will be killed like the mother in Birmingham. It is an interesting case as the coroner has refereed back his finding to the CPS for possible manslaughter charges against persons in the company due to a judgement of unlawful killing. (Briefly, installation tested by trainee and signed off at office by competent person. However, screw had punctured cable in metal studded wall leaving entire wall live. Local flood meant that mother was going to shut off water. As she touched metal pipework while standing in water, she received fatal shock.)

Until legislation like in Europe and other countries or in the UK that mirror "gas safe" that only competent registered electrician can work on electrical installations and full traceability and tractability of test instruments by persons signing off installations are introduced in the UK, I am afraid that the problems will not be solved. Frank Chapple of the EEPTU did not help in the mid 70s and we only have Gas Safe (previously CORGI) now.

I believe that all 2391 qualified persons should have to resit the test every 5 years to continue as competent person. With some law on electrical workers we would not be abused as much and more lives will be saved.

There is nothing wrong with persons of low experience passing the 2391-10. However, inspection and testing is the domain of Approved Electricians and Technicians only.



 
"I believe that all 2391 qualified persons should have to resit the test every 5 years to continue as competent person."
Would you be happy if this rule was introduced regarding the driving test?
Because, I believe although I could be wrong, more people are killed in car accidents every year than in electrical accidents. Or would it be appropriate for you to have to resit the C&G 236 or 2330 depending on when you took them as technology and working methods have progressed since I served my apprenticeship. Does that make me more or less "competent" than a 22 year old who qualified last week for example?
 
"I believe that all 2391 qualified persons should have to resit the test every 5 years to continue as competent person."
Would you be happy if this rule was introduced regarding the driving test?
Because, I believe although I could be wrong, more people are killed in car accidents every year than in electrical accidents. Or would it be appropriate for you to have to resit the C&G 236 or 2330 depending on when you took them as technology and working methods have progressed since I served my apprenticeship. Does that make me more or less "competent" than a 22 year old who qualified last week for example?

Gas Safe competent persons are retested every 5 years. And regarding the driving comparison, rarely if ever is the installer injured or killed due to his or her faulty installation. It always affect an innocent user.
 
"I believe that all 2391 qualified persons should have to resit the test every 5 years to continue as competent person."
Would you be happy if this rule was introduced regarding the driving test?
Because, I believe although I could be wrong, more people are killed in car accidents every year than in electrical accidents. Or would it be appropriate for you to have to resit the C&G 236 or 2330 depending on when you took them as technology and working methods have progressed since I served my apprenticeship. Does that make me more or less "competent" than a 22 year old who qualified last week for example?

I've thought of that before, re-test every 5 years (I'm a reasonable person), it would empty the roads of most of the idiots who shouldn't be behind a wheel and vastly reduce the number of RTA deaths.
With the added bonus I'll be able to drive from A to B much quicker! :)
 
Gas safe people do not risk having their qualifications rescinded though mate, only their gas safe cards. Much the same as a part p registered spark having his scam membership cancelled.
The questions still stand,
Would you be happy to retake your driving test every 5 years? Yes/No?
Would you be happy to retake C&G 236/2330 every 5 years? Yes/No?
Technology, installation methods and materials have changed immeasurably since I qualified 29 years ago. Does this make me more or less competent than someone who qualified last week? Yes/No?
 
If my eyes can re adjust, I think he's trying to say he wants tighter regulation on the domestic front.
That subject has been done to death with no answer. As I mentioned on another thread, you don't get this problem in ind/comm due to the selection process.
As for redoing 2391 every 5 years, he can go and...
 

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